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Thread: Matthews Police Corporal - We can take your gun for Officer Safety.

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    Matthews Police Corporal - We can take your gun for Officer Safety.

    I had a very shocking conversation with a Matthews,NC Police Corporal. He told me that during a traffic stop they can take my firearm and hold it. I explained to him that doesn't that ride along the lines as a search and seizure of my person or my property? He then told me that NC law states that he has the right to secure the firearm for officers safety.


    I can't find this law any where? Is this true or no?
    Last edited by csaunders; 01-12-2013 at 11:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csaunders View Post
    I had a very shocking conversation with a Matthews,NC Police Corporal. He told me that during a traffic stop they can take my firearm and hold it. I explained to him that doesn't that ride along the lines as a search and seizure of my person or my property? He then told me that NC law states that he has the right to secure the firearm for officers safety.


    I can't find this law any where? Is this true or no?

    Well, one could argue that if a cop could just ask you for your gun for "officer safety" then the 2nd amendment has no meaning.

    YOU have a gun, riding around, whistling Dixie, and YOU did not know this before you left your house?

    If the OP wishes to go about with a firearm, the OP best know the laws about such activity.

    I am not going to answer the question .. the OP should figure this out himself...as he should have before the contact.

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    I don't know about NC court opinions or statutes, but federal court opinions on the Fourth Amendment say the cop can temporarily seize a gun for officer safety during a traffic stop.

    Pennsylvania vs Mimms is a US Supreme Court decision that says so. And, Michigan vs Long.

    US vs Baker is a Fourth Circuit federal court decision that says so. NC is in the Fourth Circuit.

    You can find link to all three cases at the link below.


    The really annoying anti-rights part is that Terry v Ohio required the cop to have reasonable concern that the detainee was both armed and potentially dangerous--two requirements--for a patdown and/or weapon seizure.* But, in PA vs Mimms, the court equated a gun with dangerousness. The Mimms court did not expressly say they were loosening the Terry requirement, they just up and did it without calling attention to the change. So, if the cop has reason to think you are armed, he does not need reason to think you are also dangerous. The mere presence of a gun during a traffic stop is equated with dangerousness.


    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ources-Here!!&


    *The Terry court also required that a cop use judgement in the form of taking into account whether anything in the initial stages of the encounter served to dispel his concern for his safety; but, you won't find any cops bothering with that one.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-12-2013 at 12:42 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Mint Hill, Matthews Police

    I would find your local gun advocate group and go through the laws with them and their organization since most have legal advisors in their groups and that is very handy. I have from Mint Hill and honestly I would like to be a Law Enforcement Officer one day after I retire from the Military but the Mint Hill Matthews area and even Charlotte I just cant seem to trust, never been able to trust them.

    P.S to all who might say you most likely have bad experiances with LEO's and no I did not in Charlotte, Mint Hill or Matthews but when I have witnessed their overall treatment of others when I lived there and the way they spoke to some of the people in those area just made me feel uneasy, just a bad feeling and I always go with my gut feelings. Be careful and polite to the LEO's since it is easier to comply with local law and after it is done file the formal written complaint and petition you local politicians to change laws, get involved with your pro carry organizations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Well, one could argue that if a cop could just ask you for your gun for "officer safety" then the 2nd amendment has no meaning.

    YOU have a gun, riding around, whistling Dixie, and YOU did not know this before you left your house?

    If the OP wishes to go about with a firearm, the OP best know the laws about such activity.

    I am not going to answer the question .. the OP should figure this out himself...as he should have before the contact.

    Wow, just wow.

    I don’t see where the OP inferred that they had a gun, riding around, whistling Dixie, and didn’t know the laws. It was only stated that that the OP had a conversation with an officer.
    Yes one could argue the meaning of the second amendment is null and void.
    However some states have laws that allow for this, TN is one of them so the question is valid.

    And I am sure someone will chime in with don't ask officers about the law...

    The original poster is here asking questions because he has looked and has not been able to find the answer.
    We don’t start off knowing all the laws it is through research and through asking questions that we learn.

    A holier than thou attitude does not benefit anyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pfries View Post
    Wow, just wow....

    so the question is valid.
    I know I was hard on the OP... and it is a valid question. But the answer should have been known to the OP prior to the incident.

    Luckily no harm befell the OP ... but if the OP is not willing to understand the laws prior to other such incidents then this may not hold true tomorrow.

    The OP should get an clear understanding of the laws applicable to him before he gets injured or gets tossed in prison.

    The law is not forgiving when it comes to firearms.

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    A "traffic stop" implies that you broke a law. In that situation you are formally detained. I doubt you will find a statute, but it may be SOP and is probably at the officers discretion. That said, the last traffic stop I had they did not disarm me.

    Stopping someone with cause if very different than just going about your business doing nothing wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    A "traffic stop" implies that you broke a law. In that situation you are formally detained. I doubt you will find a statute, but it may be SOP and is probably at the officers discretion. That said, the last traffic stop I had they did not disarm me.

    Stopping someone with cause if very different than just going about your business doing nothing wrong.
    I don't wanta bore nobody; so this is for new readers.

    The bolded statement proves the government's lie that all guns are dangerous during traffic stops. If all guns/drivers with guns were genuinely dangerous, or even a significant number of them, no cop would fail to temporarily seize the gun. We have numerous reports of cops not seizing guns they knew about during a traffic stop.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member pfries's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I know I was hard on the OP... and it is a valid question. But the answer should have been known to the OP prior to the incident.


    Again I ask what incident?

    The conversation that took place?

    I ask a lot of questions before I do things; I researched, read books, and asked questions for many months before I started reloading.
    Not as I was reloading my first batches.

    You are inferring something and that is, that there was an incident.

    I quote from the OP’s statement.

    “I had a very shocking conversation with a Matthews, NC Police Corporal.”

    Fact 1.
    The OP had a conversation with the Corporal

    “He told me that during a traffic stop they can take my firearm and hold it.”

    Fact 2.
    During this conversation the OP was told that a person can be disarmed during a traffic stop.

    Never was it stated or eluded to that the OP was involved in a traffic stop, only that they were involved in a conversation.

    You climbed the OP’s proverbial tree due to conjecture of facts, not the facts contained within the post.
    Last edited by pfries; 01-12-2013 at 02:59 PM.

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    Regular Member ncwabbit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I know I was hard on the OP... and it is a valid question. But the answer should have been known to the OP prior to the incident.

    Luckily no harm befell the OP ... but if the OP is not willing to understand the laws prior to other such incidents then this may not hold true tomorrow.

    The OP should get an clear understanding of the laws applicable to him before he gets injured or gets tossed in prison.

    The law is not forgiving when it comes to firearms.
    really...come on... folk have chastised you as being out of line in your initial post to the OP and yet you continue to express a misunderstanding of what the OP is asking...

    OP quote I can't find this law any where? Is this true or no?

    citizen responded to his initial post as accurate as possible...i have searched NC statutes yet I am unable to find any NC statute discussing it and believe the officer safety issue flows from Terry and other such case laws.

    wabbit
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ncwabbit View Post
    really...come on... folk have chastised you as being out of line in your initial post to the OP and yet you continue to express a misunderstanding of what the OP is asking...

    OP quote I can't find this law any where? Is this true or no?

    citizen responded to his initial post as accurate as possible...i have searched NC statutes yet I am unable to find any NC statute discussing it and believe the officer safety issue flows from Terry and other such case laws.

    wabbit

    This is something that comes up with some frequency as an evidentiary matter in criminal cases. You know, cop pats a guy for a weapon during a Terry Stop arising from a drug suspicion. Cop finds drugs. At the suppression hearing, the defense claims there was no reason for the weapon pat down.

    If y'alls appeals court and supreme court decisions are availabe on-line, I'll bet there's some cases on it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-12-2013 at 07:40 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    the correct answer is that an officer can butt f you and there ain't a thing you can do about it.

    the only thing you can do is refuse to be any help to the LE. refuse to a search and seizure and with your recording of the incident. sue them for all they are worth, even if you don't win they will have to defend it
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Just popping in to say this. I contacted Matthews Police Dept via phone and asked a open carry question. The officer was very nice but he then told me about the "Holding gun" part and strongly advised that I get a CCW. I told him I was a small frame guy and CCW would be uncomfortable for me. I was never was involved with a traffic stop nor did I break a law. I was also inquiring about proper procedure such as going though a DUI / License check while openly caring without a CCW permit.


    I also was told if I had a gun on a holster on my side and the seat belt covers it then I can get a bunch of grief because it will be considered concealed.

    Thank you
    Last edited by csaunders; 01-12-2013 at 08:40 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    the correct answer is that an officer can butt f you and there ain't a thing you can do about it.

    the only thing you can do is refuse to be any help to the LE. refuse to a search and seizure and with your recording of the incident. sue them for all they are worth, even if you don't win they will have to defend it
    I know you didn't mean it this way, but I like to prevent any confusion for new readers.


    Politely, verbally refuse consent to any searches or seizures. We're not talking about physically interferring with a police officer in order to convey your refusal.

    You can learn more about this by checking out the FlexYourRights videos at YouTube. Just type "flexyourrights" into the search feature.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by csaunders View Post
    Just popping in to say this. I contacted Matthews Police Dept via phone and asked a open carry question. The officer was very nice but he then told me about the "Holding gun" part and strongly advised that I get a CCW. I told him I was a small frame guy and CCW would be uncomfortable for me. I was never was involved with a traffic stop nor did I break a law. I was also inquiring about proper procedure such as going though a DUI / License check while openly caring without a CCW permit.
    I also was told if I had a gun on a holster on my side and the seat belt covers it then I can get a bunch of grief because it will be considered concealed.Thank you
    this is from the NC attorney general: http://www.ncsheriffs.org/documents/...ws-rev2011.pdf

    quote D: Transporting Weapons

    snip...Given this general prohibition of carrying concealed weapons, individuals must be ever vigilant to ensure their particular situation cannot be construed as concealing a weapon, either on or about them, without being properly authorized to do so with a valid North Carolina, or recognized out-of-state concealed handgun permit.Therefore, the permittee's accessibility to the weapon is of prime importance. It is unlawful to transport a weapon (absent a proper permit) that is BOTH concealed and readily accessible to a person. It is for these reasons, that when transporting a weapon in a vehicle, even greater care must be exercised to ensure that the weapon is not concealed and within the ready access to an occupant of the vehicle. North Carolina law does not specifically address how to transport a weapon in an automobile. Therefore, the central question becomes: when is the weapon concealed and readily accessible to an occupant of an automobile?

    While a weapon carried openly in an automobile would not be concealed, there are other problems specific to this method of carrying a weapon. The principal drawback, of course, is in the event of an individual being stopped by a law enforcement official, the officer may not readily know that individual's purpose and intent for carrying a weapon. As such, it is imperative that an individual immediately notify an officer of the presence of any weapon in the automobile, for the officer's and the vehicle's occupants' safety.
    Unquote

    please go to the cite and read the rest of the attorney general's guidance....bottom line put it on the passenger's seat and 'open carry' carry it if you will and immediately notify the LE who is acting in the performance of their duties.


    wabbit


    ps: remember INAL
    But who prays for Satan? Who in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most...
    A person who has for untold centuries maintained the imposing position of spiritual head of four-fifths of the human race...
    All religions issue bibles against him, and say the most injurious things about him, but we never hear his side. (twain)

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    Also, you could go to the link below and type in the keywords "traffic + stop + gun".

    There are a number of cases returned. Some seem more on point than others, so you may have to skim-read a few to find what you are looking for.

    http://appellate.nccourts.org/opinions/
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    IMO, in order to hold the gun you have to be detained. In order to be detained they need RAS or PC to believe you have committed a crime. Even Terry v Ohio says they have to believe you are armed AND dangerous. It does not say armed IS dangerous, even though some wish it did.

    But basically, if it happens you end up riding it out through the interaction then pursuing it in internal affairs or through the courts.

    And if you want to be absolutely sure in a traffic stop, dui check, or DL check then just place the gun on the seat or dash in plain view.

    IANAL, I don't play one on TV, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

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    my opinion still holds. a LE can still BUTT F you and there is nothing legal you can do about it.
    the only thing you can do about it is after the fact

    may i suggest too that if you are wearing your sidearm you do not lay it in the seat beside you. that will give them more ground to take it. they are a little more uneasy taking it off your person, then they are to just pick it up off the seat.

    i ave been pulled and the LEO wanted to take my firearm. i said no and gave no doubt that i did not give permission. they finally backed down, but if they had wanted to take it there wouldn't have been anything legal i could have done about it
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

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    Whatever you do or don't do make sure you invest in a video camera and or audio recorder you can get them cheep and them may save you lots of money and perhaps some alone time in a 5 by 8 if you know what i mean.also remember to keep asking if you are being detained and am i free to go or could you let me know when i am free to leave.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by csaunders View Post
    Just popping in to say this. I contacted Matthews Police Dept via phone and asked a open carry question. The officer was very nice but he then told me about the "Holding gun" part and strongly advised that I get a CCW. I told him I was a small frame guy and CCW would be uncomfortable for me. I was never was involved with a traffic stop nor did I break a law. I was also inquiring about proper procedure such as going though a DUI / License check while openly caring without a CCW permit.


    I also was told if I had a gun on a holster on my side and the seat belt covers it then I can get a bunch of grief because it will be considered concealed.

    Thank you
    A CCW will make no difference. NC law is a must inform state concerning concealed. And the officer still can take the weapon for officer safety. I have never had my gun seized, but I would inform the officer that I do not consent to any searches and seizures. That may help you get your gun back just in case the officer thinks he wants to keep it.

    Failure to tell officer during a traffic stop you are concealing will cost you the permit. That is about 180 bucks down the drain, depending on cost of the class and ammo.
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    I know a few years ago I was stopped in Yadkin County on I-85, had a .36 cal Navy Colt in the holster right in front of my seat on the passenger side. laying against the trans tunnel on my car. State trooper saw it and asked if if was loaded to which I replied it was. He asked me if he could hold onto it while we talked to which I asked if I would get it back. His reply was yes. After our discussion and his issuance of a speeding ticket he placed my gun on the back seat and told me if I happened to get stopped in another state to tell them I had it in the car. Never had any problems and never searched my vehicle for any other weapons, but did ask what was in the gun case on the floor, to which I replied powder, shot and percussion caps. With my permission he checked it and put it back on the floor. One of the best experiences I've ever had in a traffic stop in any state.

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    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    A CCW will make no difference. NC law is a must inform state concerning concealed. And the officer still can take the weapon for officer safety. I have never had my gun seized, but I would inform the officer that I do not consent to any searches and seizures. That may help you get your gun back just in case the officer thinks he wants to keep it.

    Failure to tell officer during a traffic stop you are concealing will cost you the permit. That is about 180 bucks down the drain, depending on cost of the class and ammo.

    http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislat...hapter_14.html


    § 14‑415.21. Violations of this Article punishable as an infraction.(a) A person who has been issued a valid permit who is found to be carrying a concealed handgun without the permit in the person's possession or who fails to disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person holds a valid permit and is carrying a concealed handgun, as required by G.S. 14‑415.11, shall be guilty of an infraction and shall be punished in accordance with G.S. 14‑3.1. In lieu of paying a fine the person may surrender the permit.

    § 14‑3.1. Infraction defined; sanctions.
    (a) An infraction is a noncriminal violation of law not punishable by imprisonment. Unless otherwise provided by law, the sanction for a person found responsible for an infraction is a penalty of not more than one hundred dollars ($100.00). The proceeds of penalties for infractions are payable to the county in which the infraction occurred for the use of the public schools.
    (b) The procedure for disposition of infractions is as provided in Article 66 of Chapter 15A of the General Statutes.(1985, c. 764, s. 1.)
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  23. #23
    Regular Member papa bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    A CCW will make no difference. NC law is a must inform state concerning concealed. And the officer still can take the weapon for officer safety. I have never had my gun seized, but I would inform the officer that I do not consent to any searches and seizures. That may help you get your gun back just in case the officer thinks he wants to keep it.

    Failure to tell officer during a traffic stop you are concealing will cost you the permit. That is about 180 bucks down the drain, depending on cost of the class and ammo.

    hey WALKINGWOLF, what is a CCW and what do you do with it?
    Luke 22:36 ; 36Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

    "guns are like a Parachute, if you don't have one when you need it, you will not need one again"
    - unknown

    i you call a CHP a CCW then you are really stupid. period.

  24. #24
    Regular Member carolina guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    hey WALKINGWOLF, what is a CCW and what do you do with it?
    NC issues CHP, not the more generic CCW permits.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by papa bear View Post
    hey WALKINGWOLF, what is a CCW and what do you do with it?
    I'm old I get the two acronyms confused... Sue me.
    It is well that war is so terrible – otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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