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Thread: "Universal Background Checks":Code for Universal Gun Registration

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    "Universal Background Checks":Code for Universal Gun Registration

    The latest liberal code is to push for "universal background checks". I will set aside the fact that the whole idea of preventing criminals from buying guns, rather than preventing them from possessing guns, is a failed paradigm that should be abandoned.

    Let us examine what is being proposed as "universal background checks". It sounds as if, when you want to sell a gun, you go to the internet, put in the person who wants to buy the gun's drivers license to see if they are on a prohibited list. If they are not, sell them the gun. Of course, there are all sorts of problems with this approach, foremost being who is allowed to access the list, and what information you are required to put in. How many Robert Smiths are there?

    What the left is really proposing is universal gun registration, where anytime you transfer a gun to another person, you have to record the guns serial number, who you transfered it to, and this will have to be done through a licensed government agent.

    It will accomplish nothing to reduce crime, as it never has, anywhere it has been tried. Canada just repealed their expensive failed long gun registry. What it does do is lead to confiscation of firearms over time. Not all at once, not right away. Simply keep narrowing the group of people that are allowed to own guns. Narrow down the guns that are allowed. Make the storage requirements more expensive and onerous. That is the real motive here. Make it difficult to own guns. Make it difficult to sell guns. Gradually reduce the number of gun owners until they are politically insignificant. The left hates the American gun culture. They want to be sure that their political opposition is disarmed. That is the reason for ineffective and intrusive "universal background checks".

    It sounds so much nicer than Universal Gun Registration.

    Gun Registration is Gun Confiscation

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    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2013/01...scode-for.html

    http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12...fiscation.html

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    Some states have a state "universal check" .. where the ffl calls a number and provides information to ID the buyer. The state then approves or disapproves the transfer.

    No actual gun information is provided to the state. This information is kept by the ffl, not the state in most cases.

    If the ffl goes out of business, they turn over their file copy of the ATF form (has gun information). ffls are required to hold the forms for 20 yrs .. they can save for longer.

    Now I write like a chicken, so if they could determine what I wrote on the atf forms more power to them ... but I doubt that they could. So when I turned over the forms I waited and waited and waited ... no call from the aft to discuss the illegible writing .. so I'm good.

    And I destroyed all other records relating to my gun business (receipts, POs, etc.) .. all went into a fire.

    So if the ATF calls me about a gun I can honestly say "I have no records"...

    I really don't know what the ATF does with the forms turned in other than hold them. I would guess that the ATF in investigating a specific gun would start at the manufacturer, then go to a distributor, and then to the specific ffl files they hold to find the record of the specific gun for further information.

    But really, a national instant check cannot work IMO.

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    "Universal Background Checks":Code for Universal Gun Registration

    Not defending checks, just dispelling myths.

    Under the current system (if you want to decry some proposal that changes how NICS checks are done, please cite that proposal), the only information that is sent to the FBI are your identifying information and your intention to buy a handgun, a long gun, or both. Neither whether or not you actually buy a gun nor any information about the gun is sent.

    The current NICS system is not a registration system. It is evil as it is, but let's fight the evil that is, not some imagined evil that makes us look fringe.


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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Not defending checks, just dispelling myths.

    Under the current system (if you want to decry some proposal that changes how NICS checks are done, please cite that proposal), the only information that is sent to the FBI are your identifying information and your intention to buy a handgun, a long gun, or both. Neither whether or not you actually buy a gun nor any information about the gun is sent.

    The current NICS system is not a registration system. It is evil as it is, but let's fight the evil that is, not some imagined evil that makes us look fringe.


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    NICS alone isn't a registration system, you're right. However, NICS + 4473 surely is as close to registration as they can get within the current legal framework, which supposedly prevents such a thing. As davidmacbeth said, FFLs are obliged to keep their forms for 20 years, and to relinquish them to the ATF when they close up shop. Not many stick around that long, result is, most of those forms are sent to the feds. Maybe it's used as bird cage liner, maybe they're kept in a closet to be dug out in the event of a criminal investigation, maybe they're digitized and put into an easily searchable database. Who knows.

    We in free states can trade and gift, or pass on firearms as part of an estate. Many of us don't participate in trading firearms so, if our dealer goes bust we can expect that eventually, our firearm purchase is quietly registered, and there is at least a casual link to what we may or may not own. Universal background checks + 4437 = defacto registration, as far as I'm concerned. It will make a criminal out of your heirs if they receive their property without being vetted and documented. One or two generations later, they've got everyone's name, they've got everyone's number, they've got our collective ass(ets) in a sling.

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    The 4473s are not sent to the feds unless the FFL goes out of business within 20 years of creation of the 4473. Even then, it is only supposed to be stored by the BATFE in place of the defunct FFL for the remainder of the 20 years, and then destroyed. For those 4473s, I cannot attest to what the BATFE actually does. The law was written this way specifically so that the 4473s would NOT be available for the feds to use as a de facto registration system. If they use it as such, they are violating the spirit and the letter of the law.

    Again, let's fight the evil that is, not the one that we imagine is.

    On edit: A couple of dozen 4473s pass through my hands each day as I fill them out, check the work of others, and/or enter the forms in the bound book. I kinda know whereof I speak.
    Last edited by eye95; 01-14-2013 at 01:09 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The 4473s are not sent to the feds unless the FFL goes out of business within 20 years of creation of the 4473. Even then, it is only supposed to be stored by the BATFE in place of the defunct FFL for the remainder of the 20 years, and then destroyed. For those 4473s, I cannot attest to what the BATFE actually does. The law was written this way specifically so that the 4473s would NOT be available for the feds to use as a de facto registration system. If they use it as such, they are violating the spirit and the letter of the law.
    Right on, I agree with EVERYTHING you touched on here, because...well, isn't that pretty much everything I just said? Department of Redundancy Department calling: When has being against the letter or the spirit of the law ever stopped the feds?

    Scenario: Paperwork is choking the government, we have various laws which force governmental agencies to deal with it. Example, on each one of your IRS forms' instruction sheet. Electronic data, much less so. It's infinitesimally smaller physically, and as a computer science nerd, I can tell you it's a lot easier to manipulate and data mine, etc. For all we know, they could be complying with the letter and the spirit of the law by scanning old forms they receive, destroying the originals, and merely cataloging the images, like microfiche on steroids. Side effect: all of the images are ready and waiting to be processed by OCR by the millions, with all of the output to be dumped into a database, when, not if the legal situation changes.

    Again, let's fight the evil that is, not the one that we imagine is.
    Yeah, yeah, I'm all for that, but if we aren't also collectively ready to address the evil that's coming down the pipeline, as in, soon being proposed or otherwise in the works, then we've already lost. They've said it themselves, they have a window of opportunity before apathy sets in again, and that means one thing: blitzkrieg, baby.

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    Tangentially speaking, it is a violation of the spirit and the letter of the law to ask for your ID (drivers license) while you are OC, where OC is legal. reality check, a cop can ask you anything. Another reality check, ask a cop for his ID (drivers license) and see what happens. The response you receive from the cop should be the same response he should expect from you.

    Anyone can ask anyone anything. The difference is that a cop is.....well, different, in the eyes of the law. In the spirit and the letter of the "law" form 4473s are a national registration database. I have zero confidence that the BATF&E is following the spirit and the letter of the law under this president. Now, I could be wrong, but their (BATF&E) word to the contrary is insufficient.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Private sales are the safety valve to stop the 4473s from being used as a registration system.

    If they do away with private sales without back ground check then you lose that safety valve.

    After 3 or more private sales for cash the firearm becomes very hard to trace

    Universal background checks equals registration.

    When one sells a firearm it should be to a private partys for cash no questions asked,other then maybe can you legally own a firearm.

    It is the patriotic thing to do.
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    Form 4473=guilty until proven innocent.

    We need to get rid of ALL background checks except the serial numbers of a firearm. There should be a serial number/make model check list for those who wish to make private purchases. There should be a publicly accessible database of all stolen guns to be able to do an 'insta' check to make sure the gun is not stolen before buying it. I. for one, would not want to purchase any stolen property.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Form 4473=guilty until proven innocent.

    We need to get rid of ALL background checks except the serial numbers of a firearm. There should be a serial number/make model check list for those who wish to make private purchases. There should be a publicly accessible database of all stolen guns to be able to do an 'insta' check to make sure the gun is not stolen before buying it. I. for one, would not want to purchase any stolen property.
    Interesting. What prevents your lawfully purchased firearm being entered into a stolen gun DB by a LEO who runs your firearm's serial number to check whether or not it is stolen?

    Bad idea. Once the 4473 is in the hands of a FFL I do not want any other interaction of my lawfully purchased firearm with government or a private firm.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Interesting. What prevents your lawfully purchased firearm being entered into a stolen gun DB by a LEO who runs your firearm's serial number to check whether or not it is stolen?

    Bad idea. Once the 4473 is in the hands of a FFL I do not want any other interaction of my lawfully purchased firearm with government or a private firm.
    I never suggested that a LEO do the check. IT should be in an open data base. You type in the make and model and all Serial numbers listed as stolen pop up you can then use your browser's search function to look for a matching number. Or you scroll down to the brand name and then look at the serial number's posted there. I would not want Law Enforcement involved at all. It would be for honest citizens who want to make sure they are not buying stolen property.

    If it's a bad idea for any other reason than corrupt law enforcement then I am willing to listen.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I never suggested that a LEO do the check. IT should be in an open data base. You type in the make and model and all Serial numbers listed as stolen pop up you can then use your browser's search function to look for a matching number. Or you scroll down to the brand name and then look at the serial number's posted there. I would not want Law Enforcement involved at all. It would be for honest citizens who want to make sure they are not buying stolen property.

    If it's a bad idea for any other reason than corrupt law enforcement then I am willing to listen.
    Other reason. Citizens must enter all of their firearm serial numbers into this database where by private sales would benefit from database.

    I am not disposed to inform anyone, for any reason, how many and of what types of firearms that I own. I accept that my few retail purchases are visible to federal goons on a moments notice, for whatever reason, at the federal goons whim.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Other reason. Citizens must enter all of their firearm serial numbers into this database where by private sales would benefit from database.

    I am not disposed to inform anyone, for any reason, how many and of what types of firearms that I own. I accept that my few retail purchases are visible to federal goons on a moments notice, for whatever reason, at the federal goons whim.
    I don't propose you entering your information until your gun is stolen.

    I was saying that it could be a reference database where there would be no record of you checking to stolen status of a firearm in question.

    It would be like using the CTRL+F when using your browser.

    You start doing a search and you can get close without entering all the numbers plus there would be no record of the search.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    I don't propose you entering your information until your gun is stolen.

    I was saying that it could be a reference database where there would be no record of you checking to stolen status of a firearm in question.

    It would be like using the CTRL+F when using your browser.

    You start doing a search and you can get close without entering all the numbers plus there would be no record of the search.
    This database and its effectiveness is predicated on a stolen firearm being entered into the database voluntarily. The absence of a serial number in the database does not guarantee that a firearm transferred during a private sale is not in fact stolen.

    Please do not misunderstand. I am not adverse to a database such as you suggest in principle. I am adverse to a database that is not completely secured against government access. The database would only be as accurate as the data entered there in. The honor system is a poor guarantee against erroneous data entry.

    I am suspicious of the government's stolen gun database and its accuracy. I contend that every firearm serial number check conducted by a LEO results in that firearm being registered into a database. Does every check result in that firearm being entered into a database? I have no data to prove one way or the other, other than the "word" of LE.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Some states have a state "universal check" .. where the ffl calls a number and provides information to ID the buyer. The state then approves or disapproves the transfer.

    <snip>

    But really, a national instant check cannot work IMO.
    Who said anything about "instant"?
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    This database and its effectiveness is predicated on a stolen firearm being entered into the database voluntarily. The absence of a serial number in the database does not guarantee that a firearm transferred during a private sale is not in fact stolen.

    Please do not misunderstand. I am not adverse to a database such as you suggest in principle. I am adverse to a database that is not completely secured against government access. The database would only be as accurate as the data entered there in. The honor system is a poor guarantee against erroneous data entry.

    I am suspicious of the government's stolen gun database and its accuracy. I contend that every firearm serial number check conducted by a LEO results in that firearm being registered into a database. Does every check result in that firearm being entered into a database? I have no data to prove one way or the other, other than the "word" of LE.
    So we mostly agree on this subject, we just see things a bit differently.

    I was thinking of someway to deny the police grounds for arresting a gun owner who believed that they purchased non-stolen property. They can have a screen shot from the day they purchased the firearm showing that it was not listed in the stolen database. I would NEVER ask the police directly. I would rather have a word search database that cannot save the search base.

    EG I do a search for Ruger Mark.... 3345..... That should give me enough data to do a search for a Serial number search. it would show all the firearms listed as Ruger Mark* and with serial number having the first 4 digits of 3345.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Just do away with the BATFE, guns already go in a stolen database when reported to the insurance company, that is understandable. Filing a false insurance report is a felony. The government should follow the constitution, and any gun law is a infringement the right to keep and bear arms. This includes criminals, because mostly they do not obey laws anyway.

    I can see a new industry sprouting from this legislation. Garage gun manufacturers, where the guns are manufactured without serial numbers. The government does not have the money to search every garage and basement for a machine shop. Unless there is a new agency started to regulate mills, lathes and CNC machines.
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    Maybe they think that registration is part of being "well regulated". After all, if we are all in the militia, they need to have a record so they can call us up for duty.
    Last edited by beebobby; 01-15-2013 at 03:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    Maybe they think that registration is part of being "well regulated".
    Maybe you should read the second amendment...
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beebobby View Post
    Maybe they think that registration is part of being "well regulated". After all, if we are all in the militia, they need to have a record so they can call us up for duty.
    then you are regulating the members, not the member's possessions. Apples and Oranges.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    The phrase "well regulated" meant to the Founders, "made regular." It is only in relative recent history that regulating means making rules.

    A well-regulated militia was trained, drilled, equipped, organized, etc.

    Regular interstate commerce was commerce that moved regularly without undue interference from the States.

    Unfortunately, among today's leaders, "regulate" means "Oh, goody, I get to make rules and control people."
    Last edited by eye95; 01-15-2013 at 05:25 PM.

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    Nobody has seen the soon-to-be proposed legislation. I think that when all the pretty wrapping paper is taken off the package, you'll find some sort of de facto registration. You can bet on that!
    Last edited by OC4me; 01-15-2013 at 05:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    The 4473s are not sent to the feds unless the FFL goes out of business within 20 years of creation of the 4473. Even then, it is only supposed to be stored by the BATFE in place of the defunct FFL for the remainder of the 20 years, and then destroyed. For those 4473s, I cannot attest to what the BATFE actually does. The law was written this way specifically so that the 4473s would NOT be available for the feds to use as a de facto registration system. If they use it as such, they are violating the spirit and the letter of the law.

    Again, let's fight the evil that is, not the one that we imagine is.

    On edit: A couple of dozen 4473s pass through my hands each day as I fill them out, check the work of others, and/or enter the forms in the bound book. I kinda know whereof I speak.
    HAHA. And the Federal Government has NEVER been known to "violate the spirit of the law" have they? Or how about the law itself?
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC4me View Post
    Nobody has seen the soon-to-be proposed legislation. I think that when all the pretty wrapping paper is taken off the package, you'll find some sort of de facto registration. You can bet on that!
    Feinstein has made no bones about including registration in her legislation. It won't be disguised as anything other than what it is. If her legislation passes, all existing "assault weapons" will be registered and taxed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Interesting. What prevents your lawfully purchased firearm being entered into a stolen gun DB by a LEO who runs your firearm's serial number to check whether or not it is stolen?
    Nothing. That's what they do with the E-trace system. A system they let other countries use. And it has your information in it.

    Well, the Firearm Owners Protection Act made registration illegal. Now we just need government to abide by its own laws.

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