• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Clerk shoots robber armed with knife, may face charges (Security Video)

TheGrabber

TheGrabber

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Messages
44
Location
Huron County, Michigan
https://www.thetimesherald.com/arti...ra-footage-Liberty-Convenience-Store-shooting

Prosecutors are still awaiting more information before deciding if a store clerk will be charged in a shooting of a man armed with a knife and attempting to rob the store.

Michael Honyoust, 28, of Bellevue died from a gunshot wound to the head after clerk Pardeep Singh, 39, fired a handgun during what he said was a robbery attempt at Liberty Convenience Store at 439 Capital Ave. N.E. on Dec. 3. Calhoun County Prosecutor Susan Mladenoff said Monday she didn’t have results of an autopsy, including information about the location and direction of the bullet wound, and didn’t want to make a decision without that information. Her term ended Monday and the report on the shooting will be turned over to incoming Prosecutor David Gilbert for a decision, she said.
 
C

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
TheGrabber said:
https://www.thetimesherald.com/arti...ra-footage-Liberty-Convenience-Store-shooting

Prosecutors are still awaiting more information before deciding if a store clerk will be charged in a shooting of a man armed with a knife and attempting to rob the store.

Michael Honyoust, 28, of Bellevue died from a gunshot wound to the head after clerk Pardeep Singh, 39, fired a handgun during what he said was a robbery attempt at Liberty Convenience Store at 439 Capital Ave. N.E. on Dec. 3. Calhoun County Prosecutor Susan Mladenoff said Monday she didn’t have results of an autopsy, including information about the location and direction of the bullet wound, and didn’t want to make a decision without that information. Her term ended Monday and the report on the shooting will be turned over to incoming Prosecutor David Gilbert for a decision, she said.
Click to expand...

Yeah, because it could be, you know, the old trick of murdering a rival somewhere else, then faking a store security video with an actor-accomplice to show a robbery. Real common deception back in the 1930s. All the gangsters did it. /sarcasm
 
motoxmann

motoxmann

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 11, 2012
Messages
760
Location
Middletown, CT
well the legal issue would be directly related to where in the head he was shot, to an extent. if the robber starts to flee, you can't shoot them in the back of the head after they try to get away. justified lethal force is only when the person is about to attack you, or already in the act of attacking you. so a shot to the back of the head would be an execution, not self defense. the only way thta could be a defensive act would be if the robber turned and was about to attack a different person in the store. then it wouldnt be self defense, it would be defending an innocent bystander which is also justifiable.
but the most important part is that you CAN NOT shoot a person if they are attempting to leave the scene, that is homicide, no matter what the person has already accomplished short of murder
 
Last edited:
C

Citizen

Founder's Club Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
18,269
Location
Fairfax Co., VA
motoxmann said:
well the legal issue would be directly related to where in the head he was shot, to an extent. if the robber starts to flee, you can't shoot them in the back of the head after they try to get away. justified lethal force is only when the person is about to attack you, or already in the act of attacking you. so a shot to the back of the head would be an execution, not self defense. the only way thta could be a defensive act would be if the robber turned and was about to attack a different person in the store. then it wouldnt be self defense, it would be defending an innocent bystander which is also justifiable.
but the most important part is that you CAN NOT shoot a person if they are attempting to leave the scene, that is homicide, no matter what the person has already accomplished short of murder
Click to expand...

I gotta admit, you got a point there. The assailant was armed with a knife, so a back-of-the-head shot wouldn't look good.

If the BG has a gun, I'm less certain. It seems to me that I would have no way of knowing for certain the BG wasn't just moving to cover, intending to turn and continue the fight from cover. The law says what it says, but I'm not convinced its right.
 
C

ccwinstructor

Centurion
Joined
Jul 11, 2008
Messages
919
Location
Yuma, Arizona, USA
it is more complicated than that

motoxmann said:
well the legal issue would be directly related to where in the head he was shot, to an extent. if the robber starts to flee, you can't shoot them in the back of the head after they try to get away. justified lethal force is only when the person is about to attack you, or already in the act of attacking you. so a shot to the back of the head would be an execution, not self defense. the only way thta could be a defensive act would be if the robber turned and was about to attack a different person in the store. then it wouldnt be self defense, it would be defending an innocent bystander which is also justifiable.
but the most important part is that you CAN NOT shoot a person if they are attempting to leave the scene, that is homicide, no matter what the person has already accomplished short of murder
Click to expand...

A lot depends on the dynamics involved. Self defense situations are rarely static, things and people move fast. The guy with a knife might have taken a swing at the defender as they were drawing and the shot fired as they turned their head.

You cannot reach conclusions based only on the placement of the shot. It takes time to decide to shoot, and time to pull the trigger. A lot can happen in 3/4 of a second.
 
A

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
ccwinstructor said:
A lot depends on the dynamics involved. Self defense situations are rarely static, things and people move fast. The guy with a knife might have taken a swing at the defender as they were drawing and the shot fired as they turned their head.

You cannot reach conclusions based only on the placement of the shot. It takes time to decide to shoot, and time to pull the trigger. A lot can happen in 3/4 of a second.
Click to expand...

This.

I can't watch th vid atm but just because someone is shot in the back doesn't mwan it isnt justified. Now if the person is clearly fleeing that is one thing (unless they made a comment about returning with another weapon) but if one is in the middle of drawing/firing and the target decides to flee there very well might not be enough time to process the fact that they are fleeing. And then comes the question of trying to determine if they are fleeing or simply going for cover.
 
Z

Z1P2

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
85
Location
Corryton
I wasn't able to get the video to load yet, so this might just be me talking out of complete ignorance, but the fact that he shot him in the head leads me to believe that he will have legal trouble over this because even in a self defense situation you're not allowed to shoot with the intent to kill, only with the intent to stop the attack. There's a lot of subjectiveness to that though since only the clerk knows for sure what his intent was when he pulled the trigger, but if the prosecutor thinks there is enough evidence that he shot with the intent to kill then he may well face charges. I think he will ultimately beat any criminal charges brought against him though.
 
Z

Z1P2

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
85
Location
Corryton
Ok I just got the video to load, clearly the perp was running at the clerk full force, in a situation like that it's understandable, no charges will be filed over this if the DA doesn't want to be BADLY embarrassed and possibly sued for malicious prosecution.
 
eye95

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Can you cite a law that says you may not defend yourself with a shot to kill?

I recommend always saying that you were in fear of your life and tried to STOP the bad guy. Not because only shots to stop are legal, but because it will play better when the prosecutor is exercising discretion as well as in front of a jury if the case gets that far.

BTW, the shot to kill looks exactly the same as the shot to stop, the only difference is the motivation behind the shot.
 
Z

Z1P2

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
85
Location
Corryton
It's what I was taught in my HCP class eye95, they even teach you to ONLY state that you shot to stop the attack when questioned by police.

BTW, the shot to kill looks exactly the same as the shot to stop, the only difference is the motivation behind the shot. .
Click to expand...
That's true in reverse but not necessarily the way you put it. A shot to stop that kills looks like a shot to kill, but some shots to kill are obviously not shots to stop an attack, IE, execution style shooting to the back of the head doesn't look like a shot to stop.
 
eye95

eye95

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
13,524
Location
Fairborn, Ohio, USA
Do you know how much BS is taught in handgun classes???

Do not take anyone else's word for what the law says. Read it for yourself. So I ask again, can you cite a law that says a shot to kill is illegal for self-defense?

If a shot to the back of the head is not self-defense, it is not because it is a kill shot, it is because the legal system found that there was no longer a threat, that the BG was moving away with his back to the person claiming self-defense.

It is possible for a shot to the back of the head to be a self-defense shot. In most States the question is going to be whether the shooter reasonably believed that he was in grave danger and whether the shot taken in response to that danger, not whether the shot was a kill shot.

Again, don't take my word for it. Read your State's law on self defense. Stop learning the law from mythology perpetuated by CCW instructors and LEOs. They are usually spouting what they have heard and haven't bothered to read the law for themselves.
 
A

Adam A Farley

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20
Location
Hinckley Utah
My take

Though I like to just get this ***** (if legit robbery via weapon ) off the streets .

Reckon I would draw my gun and phone, snap a shot or two using the gun for intimidation factor and say ok RUN .

Let the cops chase his ass down as he's ******* his pants lol.
 
Z

Z1P2

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
85
Location
Corryton
The perp ran toward the clerk after the clerk had already fired a shot at him and missed, clearly he wouldn't have run away until one of the two of them was dead.
 
A

Adam A Farley

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
20
Location
Hinckley Utah
Tough call

I was told by our sheriff that any shooting by a gun carrier is help by the same guidelines as a cops would be.

Thus a chance of loosing your weapon pending investigation .

Any one of us would want to avoid shooting some one as much as posible .

Need to look into non leathel rubber rounds, I'm told they are highly accepted as justified as clean shoots to get the attacker to back down.

Even if a round was to the head, in Utah I'm told they couldn't even sue you if it caused brain damage.

No clue how much of that is fully true, we are very small populace here . But state DA gets involved and heads roll.
 
N

nonameisgood

Regular Member
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
1,008
Location
Big D
If you need the gun, use the gun. If you don't need it, don't use it, don't draw it, and don't play with it.

And don't bother carrying if you haven't wrapped your mind around having to use it, you are only endangering yourself and others. Carrying a gun means you are willing to kill when it comes to it. Either that, or to get beat with it, shot and then contribute to the crime problem as it is taken from you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top