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BoyScouts gun policy, news to me.

Thor80

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2011
Messages
299
Location
Spokane County, WA
Nothing could be farther from the truth. I won't get into the Mormons are Christians debate but being in scouts is a big thing within the Mormon community. I am an assistant leader for a Weblo troop and a Mormon.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using Tapatalk 2

I am not Mormon but I can attest that David McBeth is wrong. LDS and BSA go WAYYY back, like 100 years this year.

http://ldsbsa.org/

To keep it on topic I think ultimately its going to fall on the leadership of specific Troops. I have Open Carried at a Pack Camp out when my son was a Wolf.

-Thor
 

gogodawgs

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No jews or mormons or other non-christians (i think it used to be only catholics -- i don't know if they changed to include all christians) are allowed into the boy scouts ... its a religious organization .. i recall courts even approving this policy.

So the three stooges were not scouts...

Please cite where it is a religious organization. Please cite the court case backing this policy.
 

davidmcbeth

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earth's crust
Please cite where it is a religious organization. Please cite the court case backing this policy.

Took a whooping 3 sec on google ...http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs/Catholic.aspx

Court case? I'm not searching for it ... but I do recall such a case in which an atheist tried to join ... does that mean the case does not exist? No. It means that I am not doing legal research on this thread since it has little to do with open carry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies

It is a religious organization.
 

Citizen

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Messages
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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
Please cite where it is a religious organization. Please cite the court case backing this policy.

I just read about it within the last week in a Washington Times editorial. I'll look for it again later today. If I have still have the paper, I'll post the cite. The editorial was in relation to the Scouts winning a long-running court case about being able to use public property in a certain California locale. The information about an earlier case ruling the Scouts a religious organization was included in the commentary.

I don't think anybody is trying to say the Scouts are a religious organization in the same vein as a monestary; more that it is definitely a part of their doctrine. You know, "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and...keep myself...morally straight. A Scout is Trustworthy...Reverent."
 

skeith5

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United States
Took a whooping 3 sec on google ...http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs/Catholic.aspx

It is a religious organization.

And another half second to find this:

http://www.scouting.org/About/FactSheets/operating_orgs.aspx

LDS (AKA Mormon) troups are the largest singular group that sponsor troops. In addition to the religious groups there are several CIVIC groups. While religious organizations comprise the biggest sponsor of scouting troops (69.4%) there are plenty of non-religious troops.

The rifle shooting merit badge is the most popular badge not required to obtain Eagle Scout...

"The top 10 merit badges not required for Eagle rank earned in 2011:
Rifle Shooting
Fingerprinting
Leatherwork
Wilderness Survival
Wood Carving
Archery
Canoeing
Art
Fishing
Mammal Study"
 

golddigger14s

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2,068
Location
Lawton, OK USA
I knew about the no gun rule, but all the other activities is that are unauthorized is insane. Instead of no gun rule, they can just shorten it down to the no fun rule.
 

Citizen

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Please cite where it is a religious organization. Please cite the court case backing this policy.

Couldn't find the newspaper editorial; but a few minutes googling turned up the quote below.

It seems the very recent 9th Circuit decision in favor of the Scouts regarding them leasing public property overturned an earlier federal distric court decision against the Scouts. It seems the ruling that the Scouts are a religious organization may have originated with that earlier and now overturned decision.

Here's the excerpt:

In 2003, U.S. District Judge Napoleon Jones Jr. ruled that the Boy Scouts could not lease 16 acres of land in San Diego’s Balboa Park for a camp and their local headquarters, as well as a half-acre on city-owned Fiesta Island for a Youth Aquatic Center.
The judge had ruled that the Scouts were “a religious organization” that he said “discriminated” against atheists and homosexuals -- despite a U.S. Supreme Court decision in 2000 which had upheld the Scouts’ right to maintain their own moral and membership standards.
The lawsuit, which was filed in 2001 by the ultra-left American Civil Liberties Union on behalf of a lesbian couple and an agnostic couple, had argued that the city was illegally “aiding religion” by leasing each piece of property to the Scouts for a dollar a year.

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/sco...outs-can-continue-lease-public-land-san-diego


On pages 9-10 of the recent 9th Circuit opinion that overturned the district court opinion discussed in the paragraph above, the 9th Circuit writes:

"According to both parties, the Council itself is 'not a house of worship like a church or synagogue, [but] it is a religious organization.' "

Also, the Scouts themselves have a policy prohibiting athiests and agnostics.

So, it looks like the court is merely recognizing the Scout's own policy, and the description of Scouting as a religious organization as already agreed by both parties. As compared to the court settling a disputed question by making a determination that Scouting is a religious organization.

I can't figure out how to link the opinion, but you can get a link by googling "barnes-wallace v. boy scouts". The third or fourth return is a .pdf right from the court's website.
 
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MAC702

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...The rifle shooting merit badge is the most popular badge not required to obtain Eagle Scout...

The fact that someone can be an Eagle Scout and not know how to shoot a rifle is just mind-blowing. I'm not even expecting expert or sharpshooter status!
 

Citizen

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Location
Fairfax Co., VA
The fact that someone can be an Eagle Scout and not know how to shoot a rifle is just mind-blowing. I'm not even expecting expert or sharpshooter status!

Well, yes. I'm sure Baden-Powell's generation would have been gobsmacked* that Eagle Scouts of the 1970's wouldn't necessarily know how to track.

I'm not saying the absence of familiarity with firearms is good thing; its definitely not in line with their goals and purpose. Just that in the big picture, its not surprising it occurred.

I'm sure Chesty Puller would have a fit if he found out that within ten years of his death Drill Instructors were no longer allowed to smack recruits, and that recruits could actually "allege" against Drill Instructors, prompting investigations, for a number of things that were probably routine in his day.


*British slang for mind-blowing, stunning.
 
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badkarma

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Jun 27, 2011
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333
Location
Duvall, Washington
I choose the be involved with Scouts and follow their rules for personnel reason(spending outdoor time with my son). You may not agree with their policy regarding guns, but unless you are involved with scouts, I bet you will NEVER get them to change their policy. If you think you can then do it then prove me wrong.
 
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MAC702

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Nevada
I don't care if they change their policy or not. I just sure as hell won't support it with any kind of participation. They are basically the poster child for "SEE! We don't need guns!"

But I'm not imputing any motives on you for your choice.
 

sudden valley gunner

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Whatcom County
I don't care if they change their policy or not. I just sure as hell won't support it with any kind of participation. They are basically the poster child for "SEE! We don't need guns!"

But I'm not imputing any motives on you for your choice.

Reminds me of those of the two major parties who say the only way to change it is to join us and change it within......nah I'd rather not sully myself.
 

WalkingWolf

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North Carolina
While not the biggest fan of NRA, maybe it is time for them to start a NRA scouting program. Same for the individual state 2A rights organizations.

This would be a great way to get skiddish parents to get involved with a 2A supported event not centered on firearms. Though they would be present.
 

sudden valley gunner

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While not the biggest fan of NRA, maybe it is time for them to start a NRA scouting program. Same for the individual state 2A rights organizations.

This would be a great way to get skiddish parents to get involved with a 2A supported event not centered on firearms. Though they would be present.

I ended up taking quite a few of the neighborhood kids shooting, my kids and I would hike through the neighborhood to the trail to hike to our shooting spot. Surprisingly quite a few kids would tag along (after I would make them bring a parent out to make sure they had permission). Was quite fun and they all behaved themselves quite well.
 

Bill Starks

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Nortonville, KY, USA
Now let's get back to the 1st post...
Last night, after my son's Boy Scout meeting, I was made aware of a policy about guns and Boy Scouts. I hadn't known that I couldn't attend as a parent while Open carrying. The meeting was at an American Legion hall, not a school or anything blatantly obvious.

so you were breaking their rule....you attended a event at a place where there was no prohibition on firearms. Sometimes you just CC and continue about your business.
 

nonameisgood

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I am an Eagle Scout, who worked at a camp in Texas for four summers.

BSA is not a religious organization, but they require acknowledgement in a supreme being. They do not require any particular religion, just belief that there is a being greater than humans. That is why I can't be a leader and repay to the organization the great things it gave to me. It makes me sad, but it is their choice. (Back then, I was very involved in my church.)

Texans were not allowed to carry a handgun in any form until well after my time in scouts. At the camp, policy was that personal weapons would be checked into the rifle range (I taught rifle and shotgun) upon arrival. The risk was a large group of children having access to unsecured personal weapons. And there are bad people involved (parents mostly, but some bad scouts too).

This was the days of pickup truck gun racks, and many of the staff kept guns in their vehicles. Those of us who drove for camp duties had shotguns under the seat for wild animal problems.

They also asked that anything of high value be left at home. The organization provides a place where rich and poor look the same ("uniform"), and it was safe for all in the same way. Nowadays, maybe things are different.

In 1984-ish we had a parent break into the rifle range and steal a personal 10/22. We locked down the camp and searched. The 10/22 was found at the bottom of a latrine. I fished it out with a rope and piece of wire. The crap-covered rifle then rode in the back of my pickup. That was a poor decision on my part. When I hosed it off, we found it was loaded (it had been empty in the cabinet).
 

OlGutshotWilly

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Snohomish, WA, ,
I choose the be involved with Scouts and follow their rules for personnel reason(spending outdoor time with my son). You may not agree with their policy regarding guns, but unless you are involved with scouts, I bet you will NEVER get them to change their policy. If you think you can then do it then prove me wrong.

I too am involved with the Cub Scouts. I grew up in Scouting and had loads of fun all the way through High School. Interestingly, I learned to shoot at the Yakima Rifle and Pistol Club as a kid. Never shot in scouting. Did Lots of hiking and camping though. Dad was a State Pistol Champion, but I never knew if he carried on outings or not.

I also choose to be involved, and am a Den Leader. I think there is value in Scouting. The fact that I'm agnostic (or Born again Pagan, or....Ex-communicated druid) has never come up. Our group is sponsored through a public school and not a church, so we respect peoples right to worship ( or not ) as they please. Personally, I have let both of my sons learn about religion. I let them make their own choices as adults as to whether they choose to believe or not.

Where guns and the Scouts are involved I choose to go with the first sentence of the first safety rule:

Qualified Supervision. Every BSA activity should be supervised by a conscientious adult who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children and youth in his or her care.


I take that safety rule seriously, and for me to see to the well-being and safety of the children in my care, may require me to exercise the rights enumerated in the second amendment and our State Constitution.
 
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