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Thread: NEW YORK protects gun permit holders privacy!

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Angry NEW YORK protects gun permit holders privacy!

    Ok folks I am starting to get ANGRY about this.

    After years of introducing bills to protect the privacy of Virgina CHP holders, only to be shot down by death-star committees and last year killed by a REPUBLICAN Senator Norment, we finally have the New York newspaper fiasco which outraged the entire country, giving us a decent chance to get it out of the Senate this year, and we can't get ANYONE in the whole Virginia General Assembly to even put the bill IN this year!

    Even NEW YORK has protected their permit holders' privacy. How utterly disgusting and downright embarrassing that we can't get this bill in this year.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/16/ny...rmit-data.html

    TFred

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    Regular Member Numenor's Avatar
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    You did look at what that "protection" cost NY though right?

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Numenor View Post
    You did look at what that "protection" cost NY though right?
    I don't know what you mean. Yes, the rest of the law is an abomination and a direct insult to the law-abiding citizens of New York, but in this one area, it embarrasses Virginia that they have seen the value in protecting the identities of their gun owner list, while Virginia still has not.

    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...-restrictions/

    I love the headline of this article, "Stuck on Stupid"... hard to find better words for the most of this new law.

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Gun registration, pure and simple. No need to out the permit holders when you have a plan to out all - outragious.

    "Also, it appears law-abiding citizens would become criminals eligible to be sent to jail, simply by failing to tell the government they own guns they lawfully purchased. All guns, long guns, handguns, all firearms, must now be registered."
    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...-restrictions/
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Ok folks I am starting to get ANGRY about this.

    After years of introducing bills to protect the privacy of Virgina CHP holders, only to be shot down by death-star committees and last year killed by a REPUBLICAN Senator Norment, we finally have the New York newspaper fiasco which outraged the entire country, giving us a decent chance to get it out of the Senate this year, and we can't get ANYONE in the whole Virginia General Assembly to even put the bill IN this year!

    Even NEW YORK has protected their permit holders' privacy. How utterly disgusting and downright embarrassing that we can't get this bill in this year.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/16/ny...rmit-data.html

    TFred
    Is VA a open carry state? Is a CHP required to OC?
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Is VA a open carry state? Is a CHP required to OC?
    Absolutely yes, a CHP is required to Open Carry, if you want to not be a Federal Felon, and you wish to move about within any of the urban or suburban areas of the state, which is literally impossible to do without encroaching upon a 1,000 foot radius of some school property.

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Absolutely yes, a CHP is required to Open Carry, if you want to not be a Federal Felon, and you wish to move about within any of the urban or suburban areas of the state, which is literally impossible to do without encroaching upon a 1,000 foot radius of some school property.

    TFred
    Also in accordance with the Joint Resolution (et tu Brute) in the GA and Capitol Buildings.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Absolutely yes, a CHP is required to Open Carry, if you want to not be a Federal Felon, and you wish to move about within any of the urban or suburban areas of the state, which is literally impossible to do without encroaching upon a 1,000 foot radius of some school property.

    TFred
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Also in accordance with the Joint Resolution (et tu Brute) in the GA and Capitol Buildings.
    Ah, yes, that too!

    TFred

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Absolutely yes, a CHP is required to Open Carry, if you want to not be a Federal Felon, and you wish to move about within any of the urban or suburban areas of the state, which is literally impossible to do without encroaching upon a 1,000 foot radius of some school property.

    TFred
    "If" is not the issue. The 1000 rule does not apply beyond the 1000 feet. Is a CHP required to OC in Virginia? It seems, based on your response, that a CHP is not required to OC in Virginia. But, this is beyond the scope of the OP. I will rephrase; if you do not have a CHP then a database of CHP holders is irrelavent to the OCing citizen.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    "If" is not the issue. The 1000 rule does not apply beyond the 1000 feet. Is a CHP required to OC in Virginia? It seems, based on your response, that a CHP is not required to OC in Virginia. But, this is beyond the scope of the OP. I will rephrase; if you do not have a CHP then a database of CHP holders is irrelavent to the OCing citizen.
    And again, I will answer, if you live in any area that is not absolute "sticks", and you want to leave your house and go to work or to a store or to just about anywhere else, then yes, you will be committing a federal crime if you do so without having a CHP.

    Yes, we all know this is virtually never enforced. But the law is there. If you wish to stay within the letter of the law, a CHP is required for the vast majority of Virginia residents due to their proximity to some school property.

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    "If" is not the issue. The 1000 rule does not apply beyond the 1000 feet. Is a CHP required to OC in Virginia? It seems, based on your response, that a CHP is not required to OC in Virginia. But, this is beyond the scope of the OP. I will rephrase; if you do not have a CHP then a database of CHP holders is irrelavent to the OCing citizen.
    Many do have however.

    Who is next under the wheels of the bus? Hunters? Target shooters?
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Let's be fair here about the Federal law, it not only affects those who OC without a permit, but affects any person who is in possession of any firearm on public grounds without the firearm being locked and carried within the specific requirements of the law. This includes hunters, folks simply transporting their firearms to the range or shop, or someone just bringing a gun home from the store for the first time if they do not have a CHP. With only about 250,000 CHP holders (I think that was about the last number I recall seeing) and certainly far more gun owners than that around the state, it affects nearly anyone with a gun that doesn't follow the specific transportation requirements.
    Last edited by jmelvin; 01-16-2013 at 09:40 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Many do have however.

    Who is next under the wheels of the bus? Hunters? Target shooters?
    There's another issue though. Many of us work very hard for transparency laws. How many classes of people have a blanket exemption from them?....Really none I know of.

    There is a solution though. Pass a law that requires the court in a persons Venue, at no charge, upon application of a CHP holder, to seal his/her record.
    Last edited by peter nap; 01-16-2013 at 11:25 AM.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    There's another issue though. Many of us work very hard for transparency laws. How many classes of people have a blanket exemption from them?....Really none I know of.

    There is a solution though. Pass a law that requires the court in a persons Venue, at no charge, upon application of a CHP holder, to seal his/her record.
    That is actually the basic way the New York law works.

    From the original post's linked article:

    The new law, passed on Tuesday, requires that, for the next 120 days, no information about gun permit holders in a new statewide gun registration database is made available publicly, according to Robert Freeman, the executive director of the State Committee on Open Government. After that, gun permit holders will have the right to have their names and addresses removed from the database by contacting their local county clerks or police departments.

    I am absolutely fine with that. I would even be OK with opening a CHP record if a person is later convicted of a gun crime. That seems to be what the newspapers are so interested in.

    TFred

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    Regular Member T-Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Absolutely yes, a CHP is required to Open Carry, if you want to not be a Federal Felon, and you wish to move about within any of the urban or suburban areas of the state, which is literally impossible to do without encroaching upon a 1,000 foot radius of some school property.

    TFred
    Okay, so I'm a little confused at the moment. I was under the impression that OC in VA was legal without a CHP. Has something changed? What's the deal here? As far as schools are concerned, I thought you just couldn't go on property.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Absolutely yes, a CHP is required to Open Carry, if you want to not be a Federal Felon, and you wish to move about within any of the urban or suburban areas of the state, which is literally impossible to do without encroaching upon a 1,000 foot radius of some school property.

    TFred
    Quote Originally Posted by T-Jack View Post
    Okay, so I'm a little confused at the moment. I was under the impression that OC in VA was legal without a CHP. Has something changed? What's the deal here? As far as schools are concerned, I thought you just couldn't go on property.
    In practical terms, there is almost no chance that you will have a problem. In actual terms, there is a Federal law called the Gun Free School Zone Act, which states that a person may not carry a firearm within 1,000 feet of any school property, unless they are holding a license to carry firearms from the state in which they are situated.

    If you pull up a Google map, you will quickly see that it is virtually impossible to live in any urban or suburban area without encroaching inside this 1,000 foot zone. If you want to get REALLY technical, Virginia does not actually issue a license to carry a firearm, so in fact, EVERY citizen in Virginia who carries a firearm (within 1,000 feet of any school property) is a Federal felon.

    TFred
    Last edited by TFred; 01-16-2013 at 07:43 PM. Reason: ETA: Clarification

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    Regular Member T-Jack's Avatar
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    Hey TFred, I appreciate the clarification.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    <snip> If you want to get REALLY technical, Virginia does not actually issue a license to carry a firearm, so in fact, EVERY citizen in Virginia who carries a firearm (within 1,000 feet of any school property) is a Federal felon.

    TFred
    A database of CHP(L) holders is moot if you are not within the 1000' zone. The practicality of this is not the issue re the OP.

    Please allow me to explain. It is my understanding that a CHP(L) means that you can carry concealed, not that you must carry concealed. Is there a requirement in VA law that a citizen who has been issued a CHP(L) must carry concealed if within the 1000' zone. If there is no legal requirement to only carry concealed within the 1000' zone and you are OC does LE have RAS to stop a citizen who is witnessed to be in possession of a firearm within the 1000' zone. Or, is it, or could it be, logically presumed by a LEO that a citizen must have CHP(L) because no criminal would, or a citizen not issued a CHP(L) would OC within the 1000' zone.

    If a citizen does not have a CHP(L) then that citizen must be vigilant in their travels to avoid any legal entanglements. I agree, VA must have a CHP(L) database secured from public scrutiny.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    A database of CHP(L) holders is moot if you are not within the 1000' zone. The practicality of this is not the issue re the OP.

    Please allow me to explain. It is my understanding that a CHP(L) means that you can carry concealed, not that you must carry concealed. Is there a requirement in VA law that a citizen who has been issued a CHP(L) must carry concealed if within the 1000' zone. If there is no legal requirement to only carry concealed within the 1000' zone and you are OC does LE have RAS to stop a citizen who is witnessed to be in possession of a firearm within the 1000' zone. Or, is it, or could it be, logically presumed by a LEO that a citizen must have CHP(L) because no criminal would, or a citizen not issued a CHP(L) would OC within the 1000' zone.

    If a citizen does not have a CHP(L) then that citizen must be vigilant in their travels to avoid any legal entanglements. I agree, VA must have a CHP(L) database secured from public scrutiny.
    What is a CHP(L)?

    TFred

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    What is a CHP(L)?

    TFred
    The mirror opposite of a CHP(R)

    Think he is just indicating that a permit (P) and a license (L) are essentially the same.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    The mirror opposite of a CHP(R)

    Think he is just indicating that a permit (P) and a license (L) are essentially the same.
    But I don't think they are the same at all. I view a license as a government endorsement to carry a gun. I base this view on the meaning of the word as it is used in many other states, since in Virginia, it is not used at all. In Virginia, a CHP only exempts you from the general law that says you may not carry a handgun in a concealed fashion. There is no "license" at all regarding the carry of a handgun.

    In terms of the GFSZA, these two distinctions are miles apart.

    TFred

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    But I don't think they are the same at all. I view a license as a government endorsement to carry a gun. I base this view on the meaning of the word as it is used in many other states, since in Virginia, it is not used at all. In Virginia, a CHP only exempts you from the general law that says you may not carry a handgun in a concealed fashion. There is no "license" at all regarding the carry of a handgun.

    In terms of the GFSZA, these two distinctions are miles apart.

    TFred
    Well gosh darn. In Missouri it is called a CCW Endorsement, not a permit or a license.

    Permit, license, endorsement, they are all permission slips from the state. Splitting syntaxical hairs is like . VA don't have a license, OK, then what is the concealed carry 'whatchamacallit' that some folks have paid good money for good for in VA called. It don't, apparently, protect you from a 1000' zone violation considering that the verbiage in the GFSZ law uses license.

    And Grape is right/left , except every state that issues a permit, license, endorsement, or a whatchamacallit is treating it as a suitable substitute for the "license" requirement used in the GFSZ law. I guess the federales are quite happy with a license that may not actually be called a license.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Well gosh darn. In Missouri it is called a CCW Endorsement, not a permit or a license.

    Permit, license, endorsement, they are all permission slips from the state. Splitting syntaxical hairs is like . VA don't have a license, OK, then what is the concealed carry 'whatchamacallit' that some folks have paid good money for good for in VA called. It don't, apparently, protect you from a 1000' zone violation considering that the verbiage in the GFSZ law uses license.

    And Grape is right/left , except every state that issues a permit, license, endorsement, or a whatchamacallit is treating it as a suitable substitute for the "license" requirement used in the GFSZ law. I guess the federales are quite happy with a license that may not actually be called a license.
    In Virginia, that 'whatchamacallit' it is a permit to ignore the law against carrying a handgun in a concealed manner.

    And I agree, Virginia's CHP should not technically meet the standard required by the GFSZA. I don't think the BATF has any problem whatsoever with viewing every gun carrier in Virginia as a felon. They just know that they can't prosecute them, because the SCOTUS would eventually take their little hammer away from them.

    Actually, I don't think any state cares about the GFSZA. Some states have their own versions of that law, but it is extremely rare to hear of anyone prosecuted under the federal law, and I don't think any state LEOs would be involved. I could be wrong, and would be interested in seeing such evidence, if so.

    TFred

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    In Virginia, that 'whatchamacallit' it is a permit to ignore the law against carrying a handgun in a concealed manner.

    And I agree, Virginia's CHP should not technically meet the standard required by the GFSZA. I don't think the BATF has any problem whatsoever with viewing every gun carrier in Virginia as a felon. They just know that they can't prosecute them, because the SCOTUS would eventually take their little hammer away from them.

    Actually, I don't think any state cares about the GFSZA. Some states have their own versions of that law, but it is extremely rare to hear of anyone prosecuted under the federal law, and I don't think any state LEOs would be involved. I could be wrong, and would be interested in seeing such evidence, if so.

    TFred
    tomayto tomahto

    I fell ya brother. It is all about the syntax. If you have a CHP(L)(E)(W) then that data is not public, or should not be. Here in MO the SL made sure to include that in the law back in 2002. I hope VA gets on the band wagon.....good luck and keep pushing the issue.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Re: NEW YORK protects gun permit holders privacy!

    Does traveling in your car on a public road, or jogging not exempt from the bubble? Im speaking of Va. I oc'ed here for a while with out issue, with no permit.
    In fact I'll never forget the day I walked into the police station for printing. *finger prints were required for cc at that time.*

    The cop was curious as to why I was getting one, as his comment was, "why give the state more money, Oc is completely OK in Virginia". We both chuckled, and I said, " because the day it rains, and I cover up to keep rain off my gun, a cop will nail me for something."

    Sent from my Motorola Galaxy s3 using Tapatalk 2

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