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Thread: Told you so: agreeing to any criminalization of OC is BAD!

  1. #1
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Told you so: agreeing to any criminalization of OC is BAD!

    Arrest, charges, or convictions for simple accidental exposure is what it leads to. Video proof from Florida:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=pns3_Peke30#

    The officer makes a traffic stop on the licensed CC'er. The CC'er, fully calm and compliant with the officer, accidentally exposes his CC'd weapon when complying with the officer's request for his papers.

    The officer prones him out, cuffs him, tells him he's "going to court on it [the exposure of the weapon]", and says "Alright, so when you let it pop out from behind your shirt that's a violation of your permit right there."

    CC'er: "How's that?"

    Officer: "'Cause I saw it, that's how. It's not concealed anymore."

    So, when any Michigan gun organization or gun owner says there's no real risks to going along with "compromise" and criminalizing OC in limited areas, DON'T BELIEVE 'EM!
    Last edited by DanM; 01-17-2013 at 06:50 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Told you so: agreeing to any criminalization of OC is BAD!

    I <3 you, Dan. You're my hero. Can I have your autograph?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I <3 you, Dan. You're my hero. Can I have your autograph?
    Phil, laws that say CC, but not OC, is legal in an area lead to wrongful arrest, prosecution, and possibly conviction of CC'ers who print or accidentally expose.

    Compromising Michigan law to turn it into laws such as that is compromise that harms law-abiding Michigan gun owners.

    I never thought Michigan gun organizations would go along with such evil. I never thought they or any Michigan gun owner would need education of the consequences. I was wrong.

    So, I will be the guy around here that will provide the reminder from time-to-time about the evil of this kind of compromise.

    I will stop being the reminder if I see any Michigan gun organization taking up the good cause of defending our laws against the compromise of criminalizing OC where CC would continue to be allowed.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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  5. #5
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    (Picture of troll.)
    Ya, Phil is taking his pokes but you know what? I still like the guy.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    it's important to note that florida DOES NOT have a duty to disclose law
    it's also important to note that despite the law being changed to allow for brief accidental exposures in 2011 (this arrest was 2009), arrests still continue for accidental exposure.
    Last edited by smellslikemichigan; 01-17-2013 at 07:53 PM.
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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    So we don't compromise, and they don't compromise, and no one gets a damn thing passed. I s that about it? You DanM are either very stubborn, or very politically naive, or perhaps both.
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 01-17-2013 at 08:44 PM.
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  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    So we don't compromise, and they don't compromise, and no one gets a damn thing passed. I s that about it? You DanM are either very stubborn, or very politically naive, or perhaps both.
    Dan is not stubborn, nor is he hard headed. I feel like I can say this with some authority since I have worked with him on various OC projects over the past 5 years. Dan is in fact one of a the most reliably level headed people on this forum.

    Dan's point is also very good in this case. Negotiating rights away does no good, especially when we already have some of the very best preemption in the US. There are only a couple states in which you could be better off to carry in if you have a license/permit. Let's please not **** that up.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Dan is not stubborn, nor is he hard headed. I feel like I can say this with some authority since I have worked with him on various OC projects over the past 5 years. Dan is in fact one of a the most reliably level headed people on this forum.

    Dan's point is also very good in this case. Negotiating rights away does no good, especially when we already have some of the very best preemption in the US. There are only a couple states in which you could be better off to carry in if you have a license/permit. Let's please not **** that up.
    Ok, so he isn't stubborn. However everything I have seen to date regarding this issue since SB59 is a hardline "NO COMPROMISE" approach to legislation. Remember, Michigan would still be a May Issue state without compromise. This mentality will not get things passed. As the old saying goes, everyone needs to piss in the pot to be sure it tastes good.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  10. #10
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    What did we lose with shall from may issue? Restrictions on the politically connected? Those with legit and immediate fear for their lives can still get unrestricted CPL's, same as before. It didn't even take a small bite out of preemption.

  11. #11
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Ok, so he isn't stubborn. However everything I have seen to date regarding this issue since SB59 is a hardline "NO COMPROMISE" approach to legislation.
    My view is that if a proposal would require criminalizing a current gun right in order to pass it, then we should go alternate route:
    1)Break proposal to smaller increments and/or,
    2)Attach proposals as tie-bars or amendments to other legislation desired and/or,
    3)Informal negotiation to guarantee passage of proposals for support on other legislation that other lawmakers want and/or,
    4)Any other tool at our disposal that avoids criminalizing current gun rights.

    We are too smart, too politically savvy, and too many in number versus the antis to do what was done with SB59 in aiding and abetting the enemy by going along with criminalizing any right currently available.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Remember, Michigan would still be a May Issue state without compromise.
    Really? What gun rights available to the general citizenry at that time did we lose in order to get shall-issue passed?
    Last edited by DanM; 01-17-2013 at 10:15 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  12. #12
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Told you so: agreeing to any criminalization of OC is BAD!

    PFZ's


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

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  13. #13
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Dan is not stubborn, nor is he hard headed. I feel like I can say this with some authority since I have worked with him on various OC projects over the past 5 years. Dan is in fact one of a the most reliably level headed people on this forum.

    Dan's point is also very good in this case. Negotiating rights away does no good, especially when we already have some of the very best preemption in the US. There are only a couple states in which you could be better off to carry in if you have a license/permit. Let's please not **** that up.
    +1

    Dan is one of the very few here that I trust implicitly. If you have any doubts, you can find him speaking during Public Comments at the Royal Oak City Commission Meetings in July/August 2010 and judge for yourself:

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...ission-meeting

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...ission-meeting

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...ission-meeting

    http://www.ci.royal-oak.mi.us/portal...ission-meeting
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  14. #14
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    PFZ's


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    PFZ's are a compromise that should have never happened.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    CEZ's are what I was talking about before.

    I think we can all agree that they shouldn't be a fact of life here, but my point was that the average pistol owner in Michigan lost nothing when the CEZ's and shall issue became law. There were only gains.

    Now, the politically connected can get the same CPL as everyone else, and someone being stalked or what not can get a 180 day CPL with no restrictions. There was negotiating, but no loss which I am aware of for anyone but the politically connected.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    PFZ's are a compromise that should have never happened.
    Yes but prior to Shall issue, PFZ's didn't exist. The PFZ's were the poison pill to get Shall Issue passed. In other words, a compromise.
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 01-17-2013 at 10:51 PM.
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  17. #17
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Yes but prior to Shall issue, PFZ's didn't exist. The PFZ's were the poison pill to get Shall Issue passed. In other words, a compromise.
    I believe that we should do our best not to compromise and should fight hard for what we want - Rights Recognized.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    I believe that we should do our best not to compromise and should fight hard for what we want - Rights Recognized.
    You say No Compromise now, yet there are those here that praise how Shall Issue has made things so much better. So you acknowledge the benefit of one compromise while striking down the idea of any others? Or is it because the Shall Issue compromise threw the CC people under the bus instead?
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

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  19. #19
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    You say No Compromise now, yet there are those here that praise how Shall Issue has made things so much better. So you acknowledge the benefit of one compromise while striking down the idea of any others? Or is it because the Shall Issue compromise threw the CC people under the bus instead?
    Excellent point. Were all these people against the "shall issue" law as well?

    Author and Second Amendment March founder Skip Coryell, in his article in the Jan 2013 MOC Newsletter, stated:

    "I was impressed with the way Michigan Open Carry handled the fight to pass Senate Bill 59. It showed a willingness of the few to sacrifice for the many."
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
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  20. #20
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Excellent point. Were all these people against the "shall issue" law as well?
    No idea
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  21. #21
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    You say No Compromise now, yet there are those here that praise how Shall Issue has made things so much better. So you acknowledge the benefit of one compromise while striking down the idea of any others? Or is it because the Shall Issue compromise threw the CC people under the bus instead?
    I believe that what I wrote was not understood - I did not state "No Compromise" as is clearly evident from my post below.

    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit
    I believe that we should do our best not to compromise and should fight hard for what we want - Rights Recognized.
    There were those who, before Shall Issue became law with PFZ's added, did obtain a CCW and could carry concealed in what we know as PFZ's today. Those people did lose Recognition of Rights with the PFZ Compromise. That compromise is now what some are fighting to remove and have been unsuccessful to date more than a decade later and plenty of evidence/facts to back up PFZ Removal. I believe it would have been better to fight for No PFZ's then instead of trying to get PFZ's repealed later.

    Here is some experience I have gained by fighting hard for what we want instead of compromise.

    1. Arts, Beats, and Eats Firearm Carry on Festival Property: It seemed that the deck was stacked against us in many ways - Public Opinion, Fellow Firearm Owners Afraid We Would Lose Further Rights and Openly Criticizing Us For Open Carry as "In Your Face" Tactics, and Some in the Open Carry Community Itself Suggesting that We Compromise for 2010 and Fight Harder in the Next Year. I was concerned myself as I had never undertaken such a challenge with a group like this, I had Medical Issues ongoing where I was in debilitating pain daily which required Major Surgery at the End of August 2010, Royal Oak was my Home City and I was concerned with Repercussions from both the General Public and City Officials, and my Work Role is a Highly Visible Position where Publicity on this issue at hand could have adversely affected my career. Despite these concerns, I believed it best to pursue the issue and fight hard to resolve the issue for the best possible outcome we could achieve.

    We were approached to compromise by various persons involved including the Festival Promoter, Jon Witz. I had 5-6 phone conversations with Mr Witz and 3 in person discussions where multiple compromises were proposed that at times seemed reasonable but would have traded away Recognition of Our Rights in some shape or form. I sincerely listened to the proposals offered, discussed openly why they would not work or not be accepted, and stood firm to not compromise if at all possible since I believed in what we were doing. I and others personally put ourselves in the Public Spotlight with Speaking During Public Comments Sessions of the Royal Oak City Commission Meetings (which are televised), a WXYZ TV News Interview which aired as the Lead Story on the 6 PM and 11 PM News Reports, and a 2 Page Spread in the Detroit Free Press Sunday Edition. I wrote Multiple Letters to the City Officials, to Oakland County Officials, and even to the Michigan Legislators pressing our points home.

    What was the result of Fighting Hard and Not Compromising Here?

    A. The City of Royal Oak and Jon Witz agreed to amend the Festival Contract to Remove the No Firearm Clause Exactly as We Requested (The Second Amendment to the Festival Contract - pretty ironic). Even the Governor of Michigan (Jennifer Granholm) would not step in to Ban Firearms at the festival even though City Officials tried this angle.

    B. Millions of Michigan Residents and Residents of Other States found out that Open Carry is Legal in Michigan and helped put Open Carriers in a better light with Fellow Firearm Owners (though not as much as I would like).

    C. Multiple News Outlets, including TV, Radio, and Print, Reported that there were No Issues with Firearm Carry at the Festival (approximately 423,000 persons attended - a record for the festival).

    D. Mr Jon Witz stated to me that he was pleasantly surprised that there were No Issues and that the controversy actually helped promote the Festival. His extra effort to Ban Firearms from Festivals like these went exactly nowhere.

    E. The Cities of Royal Oak, Berkley, and Huntington Woods voted on Resolutions to implore the State Legislature to Ban Firearms from Public Buildings and/or Give Cities Home Rule Abilities/Powers to Regulate Firearms. These went exactly nowhere.

    F. This helped give MOC "Street Cred" and helped discussions with other cities go smoother as they knew we would fight hard for what we believed to be right.

    G. MSP Legal Update #86 was published 2 months later with the assistance of members of the Open Carry Community, which I truly believe was done as a result of this very public effort.

    H. Open Carriers being harassed by Law Enforcement is now few and far between when before that time it seemed to be a weekly occurrence.

    2. CADL V MOC Legal Action. It seemed that the deck was stacked against us in many ways yet again - Public Opinion, An Anti-Gun Circuit Court Judge, Existing Laws Not Mentioning District Libraries under MI Firearm Preemption, Fellow Firearm Owners Afraid We Would Lose Further Rights and Openly Criticizing Us For Open Carry as "In Your Face" Tactics, and Some in the Open Carry Community Itself Suggesting that the "Shotgun Guy" face the Music all by himself. Even though I did not like how the Legal Action started, I was first to donate to the MOC Legal Defense Fund for $500. I attended the Circuit Court Proceedings where we lost, attended the MI Court Of Appeals Proceedings where we won, and truly believe that the MI Supreme Court will not hear the case at all.

    What was the result of Fighting Hard and Not Compromising Here?

    A. Michigan Open Carry (MOC) and Michigan Gun Owners (MGO) worked together on the case, where MGO actually filed suit against CADL but that case was dismissed. These 2 Michigan Firearm Rights Organizations now have a better working relationship.

    B. The MI Court Of Appeals (COA) ruled that the State of Michigan Preempts the Entire Field of Firearm Regulation against far more than what is listed under MCL 123.1101. I believe that this ruling will form the basis for additional legal challenges yet to come where Rights will be further Recognized and Supported, with Firearm Carry being allowed in places it is currently not allowed.

    C. Open Carriers are seen by Fellow Firearm Owners as leading the Fight for Firearm Rights and more Support has been garnered by same.

    I post these things here with the express intent of showing that Fighting Hard can work and Compromise should be a Last Resort if at all used. If we fight hard together for what we believe to be right, I truly believe that we can achieve far more than we realize to be possible.
    Last edited by PDinDetroit; 01-18-2013 at 02:06 AM.
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  22. #22
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    Compromise should be a Last Resort if at all used.
    I don't think anyone disagrees with you.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
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    There's the old saying that a tyrant should never be allowed to die a natural death.

    So, my idea of a compromise would be to concede to using a hemp rope instead of a polypropylene rope.

    Which is just another way of saying, "No compromises on rights."
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-18-2013 at 03:08 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    If I have never thanked DanM, PD and Michigander and the others for their tireless efforts, here it is. Thank you. I will add that I feel that compromise is the very last thing that should be utilized in our pursuit of freedom. springerdave.

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PDinDetroit View Post
    I believe that what I wrote was not understood - I did not state "No Compromise" as is clearly evident from my post below.



    There were those who, before Shall Issue became law with PFZ's added, did obtain a CCW and could carry concealed in what we know as PFZ's today. Those people did lose Recognition of Rights with the PFZ Compromise. That compromise is now what some are fighting to remove and have been unsuccessful to date more than a decade later and plenty of evidence/facts to back up PFZ Removal. I believe it would have been better to fight for No PFZ's then instead of trying to get PFZ's repealed later.

    Here is some experience I have gained by fighting hard for what we want instead of compromise.

    1. Arts, Beats, and Eats Firearm Carry on Festival Property: It seemed that the deck was stacked against us in many ways - Public Opinion, Fellow Firearm Owners Afraid We Would Lose Further Rights and Openly Criticizing Us For Open Carry as "In Your Face" Tactics, and Some in the Open Carry Community Itself Suggesting that We Compromise for 2010 and Fight Harder in the Next Year. I was concerned myself as I had never undertaken such a challenge with a group like this, I had Medical Issues ongoing where I was in debilitating pain daily which required Major Surgery at the End of August 2010, Royal Oak was my Home City and I was concerned with Repercussions from both the General Public and City Officials, and my Work Role is a Highly Visible Position where Publicity on this issue at hand could have adversely affected my career. Despite these concerns, I believed it best to pursue the issue and fight hard to resolve the issue for the best possible outcome we could achieve.

    We were approached to compromise by various persons involved including the Festival Promoter, Jon Witz. I had 5-6 phone conversations with Mr Witz and 3 in person discussions where multiple compromises were proposed that at times seemed reasonable but would have traded away Recognition of Our Rights in some shape or form. I sincerely listened to the proposals offered, discussed openly why they would not work or not be accepted, and stood firm to not compromise if at all possible since I believed in what we were doing. I and others personally put ourselves in the Public Spotlight with Speaking During Public Comments Sessions of the Royal Oak City Commission Meetings (which are televised), a WXYZ TV News Interview which aired as the Lead Story on the 6 PM and 11 PM News Reports, and a 2 Page Spread in the Detroit Free Press Sunday Edition. I wrote Multiple Letters to the City Officials, to Oakland County Officials, and even to the Michigan Legislators pressing our points home.

    What was the result of Fighting Hard and Not Compromising Here?

    A. The City of Royal Oak and Jon Witz agreed to amend the Festival Contract to Remove the No Firearm Clause Exactly as We Requested (The Second Amendment to the Festival Contract - pretty ironic). Even the Governor of Michigan (Jennifer Granholm) would not step in to Ban Firearms at the festival even though City Officials tried this angle.

    B. Millions of Michigan Residents and Residents of Other States found out that Open Carry is Legal in Michigan and helped put Open Carriers in a better light with Fellow Firearm Owners (though not as much as I would like).

    C. Multiple News Outlets, including TV, Radio, and Print, Reported that there were No Issues with Firearm Carry at the Festival (approximately 423,000 persons attended - a record for the festival).

    D. Mr Jon Witz stated to me that he was pleasantly surprised that there were No Issues and that the controversy actually helped promote the Festival. His extra effort to Ban Firearms from Festivals like these went exactly nowhere.

    E. The Cities of Royal Oak, Berkley, and Huntington Woods voted on Resolutions to implore the State Legislature to Ban Firearms from Public Buildings and/or Give Cities Home Rule Abilities/Powers to Regulate Firearms. These went exactly nowhere.

    F. This helped give MOC "Street Cred" and helped discussions with other cities go smoother as they knew we would fight hard for what we believed to be right.

    G. MSP Legal Update #86 was published 2 months later with the assistance of members of the Open Carry Community, which I truly believe was done as a result of this very public effort.

    H. Open Carriers being harassed by Law Enforcement is now few and far between when before that time it seemed to be a weekly occurrence.

    2. CADL V MOC Legal Action. It seemed that the deck was stacked against us in many ways yet again - Public Opinion, An Anti-Gun Circuit Court Judge, Existing Laws Not Mentioning District Libraries under MI Firearm Preemption, Fellow Firearm Owners Afraid We Would Lose Further Rights and Openly Criticizing Us For Open Carry as "In Your Face" Tactics, and Some in the Open Carry Community Itself Suggesting that the "Shotgun Guy" face the Music all by himself. Even though I did not like how the Legal Action started, I was first to donate to the MOC Legal Defense Fund for $500. I attended the Circuit Court Proceedings where we lost, attended the MI Court Of Appeals Proceedings where we won, and truly believe that the MI Supreme Court will not hear the case at all.

    What was the result of Fighting Hard and Not Compromising Here?

    A. Michigan Open Carry (MOC) and Michigan Gun Owners (MGO) worked together on the case, where MGO actually filed suit against CADL but that case was dismissed. These 2 Michigan Firearm Rights Organizations now have a better working relationship.

    B. The MI Court Of Appeals (COA) ruled that the State of Michigan Preempts the Entire Field of Firearm Regulation against far more than what is listed under MCL 123.1101. I believe that this ruling will form the basis for additional legal challenges yet to come where Rights will be further Recognized and Supported, with Firearm Carry being allowed in places it is currently not allowed.

    C. Open Carriers are seen by Fellow Firearm Owners as leading the Fight for Firearm Rights and more Support has been garnered by same.

    I post these things here with the express intent of showing that Fighting Hard can work and Compromise should be a Last Resort if at all used. If we fight hard together for what we believe to be right, I truly believe that we can achieve far more than we realize to be possible.
    All VERY true...
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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