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Thread: MOC Announcement on Facebook.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    MOC Announcement on Facebook.

    From MOC's Facebook "I met today with officials in the legislative branch. A redux of SB 59 will soon be introduced in the Michigan Senate. The bill would move licensing authority to the MSP, allow anyone to get an exemption from pistol free zones for concealed carry, and lower the cost for obtaining a CPL amongst other benefits. Stay tuned for more news on this exciting bill as it is drafted and introduced.
    - PLH "

    Will this new sb59 remove the so called open carry in PFZ loophole as the original did?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    MOC Announcement on Facebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by BoiledFrogs View Post
    From what I hear, it leaves schools out entirely. Protect everybody except the kids.
    Those who know won't say. Those who say don't know.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Those who know won't say. Those who say don't know.
    TheQ perhaps being forthcoming might be a good thing for those "in the know". Makes me think people are up to something bad when there is too much secrecy.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  4. #4
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    MOC Announcement on Facebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post

    Will this new sb59 remove the so called open carry in PFZ loophole as the original did?
    Honestly, I don't know. It was discussed I'm not exactly sure which side of the discussion will make the draft.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Honestly, I don't know. It was discussed I'm not exactly sure which side of the discussion will make the draft.
    So it is possible that OC in PFZs might in fact go away. I really don't see anyway around it as long as Gov. Snyder feels strongly about it.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  6. #6
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    TheQ perhaps being forthcoming might be a good thing for those "in the know". Makes me think people are up to something bad when there is too much secrecy.
    Then call the legislators working on it and make them tell us.

    Or maybe they have to pass it to find out what's in it.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  7. #7
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Then call the legislators working on it and make them tell us.

    Or maybe they have to pass it to find out what's in it.
    griffin I am just asking a question about what was posted on Facebook, perhaps posting information should wait till more information is know. We all know how well the original sb59 was excepted within the ranks of Michigan open carriers.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  8. #8
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    griffin I am just asking a question about what was posted on Facebook, perhaps posting information should wait till more information is know.
    No, you weren't. You wanted to know what was in it, Phil responded that no one but the people working on the bill in the legislature knows for sure, and we won't know until it is introduced. Maybe if we're lucky we'll learn a little sooner, but no one knows now. Apparently that wasn't good enough for you.

    Then on top of it all, you complain because MOC is being too informative by trying to keep everyone in the loop on new legislation. When the bill is introduced, I'm sure a link will be provided to it so everyone can read it for him or herself just like it always is. But no, you opine that MOC should not say anything about new legislation until the bill has actually been entered.

    You'd bitch if you were hung with a new rope.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  9. #9
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    So it is possible that OC in PFZs might in fact go away. I really don't see anyway around it as long as Gov. Snyder feels strongly about it.
    With the way Snyder feels about it, that might go away regardless of the new SB59.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  10. #10
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    info from MGO

    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=213893

    from the forum post on MGO
    "Do not throw OC under the bus like the last SB 59

    I agree, but MOC is the one offerring to give OC up in the schools if we can get what I mentioned above passed."

    and

    "Believe it or not, MOC (Phil H) said it would be WILLING to make concessions to get the whole bill passed. It is not the ideal scenario, but he understands it may come to pass. You guys need to understand, everybody doesn't get everything they want. If you want a, b, and c, you may need to give up d. Hate the game, not the players."
    Last edited by Raggs; 01-19-2013 at 10:03 AM. Reason: more information
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  11. #11
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    http://www.migunowners.org/forum/sho...d.php?t=213893

    from the forum post on MGO
    "Do not throw OC under the bus like the last SB 59

    I agree, but MOC is the one offerring to give OC up in the schools if we can get what I mentioned above passed."

    and

    "Believe it or not, MOC (Phil H) said it would be WILLING to make concessions to get the whole bill passed. It is not the ideal scenario, but he understands it may come to pass. You guys need to understand, everybody doesn't get everything they want. If you want a, b, and c, you may need to give up d. Hate the game, not the players."
    MOC is more than just Phil. I support compromise as a negotiating tool to obtain a greater good, too. I'm sure a few others do, too...
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  12. #12
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    MOC is more than just Phil. I support compromise as a negotiating tool to obtain a greater good, too. I'm sure a few others do, too...
    Many things may fall under the definition of concessions or compromise. My take:

    I concur with those who call for smaller, incremental bills that do not involve criminalizing any gun rights we currently possess. If a bill is so big it requires going along with criminalizing currently legal gun rights, it is too big.

    I further concur with those who call for not upfront throwing in concessions such as extra training. It is poor negotiation skill to come to the table with the enemy, with your concessions already given to them. You come to the table with what you want, and you make them pay blood (in the form of giving you more of the rights you want) to get concessions from you. And the concessions do not involve criminalizing what rights we currently legally possess.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  13. #13
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    MOC is more than just Phil. I support compromise as a negotiating tool to obtain a greater good, too. I'm sure a few others do, too...
    Just stating what is on MGO's forum
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  14. #14
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    In regards to dan's #14 post, yes, I agree fully.

    The past year has seen us lose every bit of car carry of long guns, and I haven't completely looked into it yet but I believe we just lost non CPL holder exemption from the GFSZA too.

    And now we have taser carry, but no preemption for it that I'm aware of. We don't seem to be doing this correctly.
    Last edited by Michigander; 01-19-2013 at 05:01 PM.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    In regards to dan's #14 post, yes, I agree fully.

    The past year has seen us lose every bit of car carry of long guns, and I haven't completely looked into it yet but I believe we just lost non CPL holder exemption from the GFSZA too.

    And now we have taser carry, but no preemption for it that I'm aware of. We don't seem to be doing this correctly.
    It's called............ "reasonable compromise". And surely it is working to further gun rights in the same manner as "reasonable compromise" helped further gun rights over the past few decades.

    Oh... I forgot..

    /sarcasm
    Last edited by Bikenut; 01-19-2013 at 05:53 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  16. #16
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: MOC Announcement on Facebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    It's called............ "reasonable compromise". And surely it is working to further gun rights in the same manner as "reasonable compromise" helped further gun rights over the past few decades.

    Oh... I forgot..

    /sarcasm
    Well said Sir. Let us not forget that for decades "our leaders" have been gutting the bill of rights. It is now the norm for police to frequently violate our rights under the cloak of "public safety". Bad guy robs a bank - no big deal just shut down a entire freeway and search all people in cars at gun point. If we do not start pushing back we will be nothing more than a "in name only free" banana republic...
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

  17. #17
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeInAZ View Post
    Well said Sir. Let us not forget that for decades "our leaders" have been gutting the bill of rights. . . .
    That should not be ignored, certainly, but Bikenut's message--to me--speaks to an evil far worse that we need to warily keep in our sights. That being gun owners ourselves, especially the organizations we belong to and lobby for us, going along with going backward on gun rights and criminalizing currently legal gun rights.

    There is a saying: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I would add to that, "Being around power also corrupts." When you are lobbying and working with legislators, it tends to corrupt you. It's often not intentional by the lobbyists, and often it's not noticeable by them. Much like hypoxia, you're starting to get stupid and doing the wrong things but you don't notice it and you think you're doing fine, but that's only because the lack of oxygen to your brain is also impairing your awareness of yourself. When you're working with legislators, the urgency to get something done so you don't feel like you wasted part of your life couples with the heady feeling that you are a "player" in the power game. When others in the group start talking about "look let's consider criminalizing a little bit of this minority exercised right of open carry in order to get this bill we've been bleeding and sweating over to get passed", it's hard not to resist because you are unintentionally drunk (hypoxic) with the idea of getting SOMETHING accomplished so you don't have to go home and face your own self-criticism that you had your time wasted and you really weren't such a big "player".

    We have to watch our gun lobbyists closely and yank some oxygen on their faces when necessary, especially when it comes to hypoxically going along with criminalizing currently legal gun rights. Yanking oxygen on their face comes in many forms, some examples being the posts here criticizing the criminalizations that were going to be in the recently failed SB 59. We have to put the oxygen mask on their face, and after they come back to full awareness, we have to tell them it's ok if they end up wasting their time and it's ok to not be a "player", as long as they are not going along with criminalizing gun rights away, one bill at a time.
    Last edited by DanM; 01-21-2013 at 02:18 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    That should not be ignored, certainly, but Bikenut's message--to me--speaks to an evil far worse that we need to warily keep in our sights. That being gun owners ourselves, especially the organizations we belong to and lobby for us, going along with going backward on gun rights and criminalizing currently legal gun rights.

    There is a saying: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I would add to that, "Being around power also corrupts." When you are lobbying and working with legislators, it tends to corrupt you. It's often not intentional by the lobbyists, and often it's not noticeable by them. Much like hypoxia, you're starting to get stupid and doing the wrong things but you don't notice it and you think you're doing fine, but that's only because the lack of oxygen to your brain is also impairing your awareness of yourself. When you're working with legislators, the urgency to get something done so you don't feel like you wasted part of your life couples with the heady feeling that you are a "player" in the power game. When others in the group start talking about "look let's consider criminalizing a little bit of this minority exercised right of open carry in order to get this bill we've been bleeding and sweating over to get passed", it's hard not to resist because you are unintentionally drunk (hypoxic) with the idea of getting SOMETHING accomplished so you don't have to go home and face your own self-criticism that you had your time wasted and you really weren't such a big "player".

    We have to watch our gun lobbyists closely and yank some oxygen on their faces when necessary, especially when it comes to hypoxically going along with criminalizing currently legal gun rights. Yanking oxygen on their face comes in many forms, some examples being the posts here criticizing the criminalizations that were going to be in the recently failed SB 59. We have to put the oxygen mask on their face, and after they come back to full awareness, we have to tell them it's ok if they end up wasting their time and it's ok to not be a "player", as long as they are not going along with criminalizing gun rights away, one bill at a time.
    Fortunately, our legislators and lobbyists live in the real world, where an all or nothing approach always yields 'none'. They've learned that they cannot ever satisfy the extremists that live out on the fringe of reality. Compromise is an everyday occurrence, in everyone's life; no exceptions. You compromise on the pay you receive, the hours you work, the prices you pay, the house you live in, which side of the bed you sleep on- the list goes on and on, ad infinitum. How do you go through a day without compromise? I know for a fact, you don't.

    To believe that progress can be made without compromise is to deny reality. Possibly even could classify as a mental illness (narcissistic personality, to full blown psychopathy).

    I OC everywhere, but I don't consider it with the same fervor that usually is reserved for religion. I support human rights, particularly the basic human right of survival. If I need to give up OC so a greater number of individuals can regain that basic human right, I'm OK with that.

    That being said, I would push for dropping the age to obtain a CPL to 18 to replace OC, so that people who have reached that age can have that same basic human right.

    Would I like to stop making compromises? Sure, but I don't think my company is going to give me a bigger paycheck, better office, etc, just because I say it must be so. So, we compromise.

    Such is reality; such is life. If you believe you can go through life without compromise, be prepared for a life chock full of disappointment.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  19. #19
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Fortunately, our legislators and lobbyists live in the real world, where an all or nothing approach always yields 'none'. They've learned that they cannot ever satisfy the extremists that live out on the fringe of reality. Compromise is an everyday occurrence, in everyone's life; no exceptions. You compromise on the pay you receive, the hours you work, the prices you pay, the house you live in, which side of the bed you sleep on- the list goes on and on, ad infinitum. How do you go through a day without compromise? I know for a fact, you don't.

    To believe that progress can be made without compromise is to deny reality. Possibly even could classify as a mental illness (narcissistic personality, to full blown psychopathy).

    I OC everywhere, but I don't consider it with the same fervor that usually is reserved for religion. I support human rights, particularly the basic human right of survival. If I need to give up OC so a greater number of individuals can regain that basic human right, I'm OK with that.

    That being said, I would push for dropping the age to obtain a CPL to 18 to replace OC, so that people who have reached that age can have that same basic human right.

    Would I like to stop making compromises? Sure, but I don't think my company is going to give me a bigger paycheck, better office, etc, just because I say it must be so. So, we compromise.

    Such is reality; such is life. If you believe you can go through life without compromise, be prepared for a life chock full of disappointment.
    +1 but I think you are trying to reason with an echo.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    +1 but I think you are trying to reason with an echo.
    You're right, but hopefully someone else will come along and realize that there is danger in being a fringe element, and reconsider their own position on life....

    The media just LOVES the fringers......
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  21. #21
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    MOC Announcement on Facebook.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    You're right, but hopefully someone else will come along and realize that there is danger in being a fringe element, and reconsider their own position on life....

    The media just LOVES the fringers......
    Good point.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  22. #22
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Arguably everyone who, not being a police officer, open carries is on the fringe. the mainstream gun owners don't do it, mainstream CPL holders don't do it, an extremely small percentage of the population do it, wouldn't that be the definition of fringe?


    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    You're right, but hopefully someone else will come along and realize that there is danger in being a fringe element, and reconsider their own position on life....

    The media just LOVES the fringers......
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  23. #23
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Arguably everyone who, not being a police officer, open carries is on the fringe. the mainstream gun owners don't do it, mainstream CPL holders don't do it, an extremely small percentage of the population do it, wouldn't that be the definition of fringe?
    Even within a small group you can find extremes at both ends. The ones that are at those extremes are the "fringe" I believe ShaddowBear was referring to. I am a CPL holder yet I almost always OC, unless the situation dictates that CC would be wiser, i.e. family gatherings (some of my family think I am a fringe element because I carry all the time). And I hope, in time that by OC'ing, I and others will slowly convert the anti's that we are not the bad guys. Education and desensitization right?
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    That should not be ignored, certainly, but Bikenut's message--to me--speaks to an evil far worse that we need to warily keep in our sights. That being gun owners ourselves, especially THE ORGANIZATIONS WE BELONG TO and lobby for US, going along with going backward on gun rights and criminalizing currently legal gun rights.
    Just to be clear, what gun groups do you belong to that are going backwards on gun rights?

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Fortunately, our legislators and lobbyists live in the real world, where an all or nothing approach always yields 'none'. They've learned that they cannot ever satisfy the extremists that live out on the fringe of reality. Compromise is an everyday occurrence, in everyone's life; no exceptions. You compromise on the pay you receive, the hours you work, the prices you pay, the house you live in, which side of the bed you sleep on- the list goes on and on, ad infinitum. How do you go through a day without compromise? I know for a fact, you don't.

    To believe that progress can be made without compromise is to deny reality. Possibly even could classify as a mental illness (narcissistic personality, to full blown psychopathy).

    I OC everywhere, but I don't consider it with the same fervor that usually is reserved for religion. I support human rights, particularly the basic human right of survival. If I need to give up OC so a greater number of individuals can regain that basic human right, I'm OK with that.

    That being said, I would push for dropping the age to obtain a CPL to 18 to replace OC, so that people who have reached that age can have that same basic human right.

    Would I like to stop making compromises? Sure, but I don't think my company is going to give me a bigger paycheck, better office, etc, just because I say it must be so. So, we compromise.

    Such is reality; such is life. If you believe you can go through life without compromise, be prepared for a life chock full of disappointment.
    Is there some gradation of "compromise"? If there is, perhaps some people would think that in the negotiation too much has already been compromised. Maybe if one group compromises "too much", the ones with whom they are negotiating think that "they" really didn't hold the supposed points of contention very dear. Then it comes down to where does the truth of the argument really lie?
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-21-2013 at 08:40 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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