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MOC Announcement on Facebook.

Raggs

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From MOC's Facebook "I met today with officials in the legislative branch. A redux of SB 59 will soon be introduced in the Michigan Senate. The bill would move licensing authority to the MSP, allow anyone to get an exemption from pistol free zones for concealed carry, and lower the cost for obtaining a CPL amongst other benefits. Stay tuned for more news on this exciting bill as it is drafted and introduced.
- PLH "

Will this new sb59 remove the so called open carry in PFZ loophole as the original did?
 

Raggs

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Honestly, I don't know. It was discussed I'm not exactly sure which side of the discussion will make the draft.

So it is possible that OC in PFZs might in fact go away. I really don't see anyway around it as long as Gov. Snyder feels strongly about it.
 

griffin

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TheQ perhaps being forthcoming might be a good thing for those "in the know". Makes me think people are up to something bad when there is too much secrecy.
Then call the legislators working on it and make them tell us.

Or maybe they have to pass it to find out what's in it.
biggrin5.gif
 

Raggs

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Then call the legislators working on it and make them tell us.

Or maybe they have to pass it to find out what's in it.
biggrin5.gif

griffin I am just asking a question about what was posted on Facebook, perhaps posting information should wait till more information is know. We all know how well the original sb59 was excepted within the ranks of Michigan open carriers.
 

griffin

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griffin I am just asking a question about what was posted on Facebook, perhaps posting information should wait till more information is know.

No, you weren't. You wanted to know what was in it, Phil responded that no one but the people working on the bill in the legislature knows for sure, and we won't know until it is introduced. Maybe if we're lucky we'll learn a little sooner, but no one knows now. Apparently that wasn't good enough for you.

Then on top of it all, you complain because MOC is being too informative by trying to keep everyone in the loop on new legislation. When the bill is introduced, I'm sure a link will be provided to it so everyone can read it for him or herself just like it always is. But no, you opine that MOC should not say anything about new legislation until the bill has actually been entered.

You'd bitch if you were hung with a new rope.
 

Ezerharden

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Erie, MI
So it is possible that OC in PFZs might in fact go away. I really don't see anyway around it as long as Gov. Snyder feels strongly about it.

With the way Snyder feels about it, that might go away regardless of the new SB59.
 

Raggs

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info from MGO

http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=213893

from the forum post on MGO
"Do not throw OC under the bus like the last SB 59

I agree, but MOC is the one offerring to give OC up in the schools if we can get what I mentioned above passed."

and

"Believe it or not, MOC (Phil H) said it would be WILLING to make concessions to get the whole bill passed. It is not the ideal scenario, but he understands it may come to pass. You guys need to understand, everybody doesn't get everything they want. If you want a, b, and c, you may need to give up d. Hate the game, not the players."
 
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Shadow Bear

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http://www.migunowners.org/forum/showthread.php?t=213893

from the forum post on MGO
"Do not throw OC under the bus like the last SB 59

I agree, but MOC is the one offerring to give OC up in the schools if we can get what I mentioned above passed."

and

"Believe it or not, MOC (Phil H) said it would be WILLING to make concessions to get the whole bill passed. It is not the ideal scenario, but he understands it may come to pass. You guys need to understand, everybody doesn't get everything they want. If you want a, b, and c, you may need to give up d. Hate the game, not the players."

MOC is more than just Phil. I support compromise as a negotiating tool to obtain a greater good, too. I'm sure a few others do, too...
 

DanM

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MOC is more than just Phil. I support compromise as a negotiating tool to obtain a greater good, too. I'm sure a few others do, too...

Many things may fall under the definition of concessions or compromise. My take:

I concur with those who call for smaller, incremental bills that do not involve criminalizing any gun rights we currently possess. If a bill is so big it requires going along with criminalizing currently legal gun rights, it is too big.

I further concur with those who call for not upfront throwing in concessions such as extra training. It is poor negotiation skill to come to the table with the enemy, with your concessions already given to them. You come to the table with what you want, and you make them pay blood (in the form of giving you more of the rights you want) to get concessions from you. And the concessions do not involve criminalizing what rights we currently legally possess.
 

Michigander

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Aug 24, 2007
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Mulligan's Valley
In regards to dan's #14 post, yes, I agree fully.

The past year has seen us lose every bit of car carry of long guns, and I haven't completely looked into it yet but I believe we just lost non CPL holder exemption from the GFSZA too.

And now we have taser carry, but no preemption for it that I'm aware of. We don't seem to be doing this correctly.
 
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B

Bikenut

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In regards to dan's #14 post, yes, I agree fully.

The past year has seen us lose every bit of car carry of long guns, and I haven't completely looked into it yet but I believe we just lost non CPL holder exemption from the GFSZA too.

And now we have taser carry, but no preemption for it that I'm aware of. We don't seem to be doing this correctly.
It's called............ "reasonable compromise". And surely it is working to further gun rights in the same manner as "reasonable compromise" helped further gun rights over the past few decades.

Oh... I forgot..

/sarcasm
 
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FreeInAZ

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Oct 15, 2012
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Secret Bunker
It's called............ "reasonable compromise". And surely it is working to further gun rights in the same manner as "reasonable compromise" helped further gun rights over the past few decades.

Oh... I forgot..

/sarcasm

Well said Sir. Let us not forget that for decades "our leaders" have been gutting the bill of rights. It is now the norm for police to frequently violate our rights under the cloak of "public safety". Bad guy robs a bank - no big deal just shut down a entire freeway and search all people in cars at gun point. If we do not start pushing back we will be nothing more than a "in name only free" banana republic...:eek:
 

DanM

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Well said Sir. Let us not forget that for decades "our leaders" have been gutting the bill of rights. . . .

That should not be ignored, certainly, but Bikenut's message--to me--speaks to an evil far worse that we need to warily keep in our sights. That being gun owners ourselves, especially the organizations we belong to and lobby for us, going along with going backward on gun rights and criminalizing currently legal gun rights.

There is a saying: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I would add to that, "Being around power also corrupts." When you are lobbying and working with legislators, it tends to corrupt you. It's often not intentional by the lobbyists, and often it's not noticeable by them. Much like hypoxia, you're starting to get stupid and doing the wrong things but you don't notice it and you think you're doing fine, but that's only because the lack of oxygen to your brain is also impairing your awareness of yourself. When you're working with legislators, the urgency to get something done so you don't feel like you wasted part of your life couples with the heady feeling that you are a "player" in the power game. When others in the group start talking about "look let's consider criminalizing a little bit of this minority exercised right of open carry in order to get this bill we've been bleeding and sweating over to get passed", it's hard not to resist because you are unintentionally drunk (hypoxic) with the idea of getting SOMETHING accomplished so you don't have to go home and face your own self-criticism that you had your time wasted and you really weren't such a big "player".

We have to watch our gun lobbyists closely and yank some oxygen on their faces when necessary, especially when it comes to hypoxically going along with criminalizing currently legal gun rights. Yanking oxygen on their face comes in many forms, some examples being the posts here criticizing the criminalizations that were going to be in the recently failed SB 59. We have to put the oxygen mask on their face, and after they come back to full awareness, we have to tell them it's ok if they end up wasting their time and it's ok to not be a "player", as long as they are not going along with criminalizing gun rights away, one bill at a time.
 
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Shadow Bear

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That should not be ignored, certainly, but Bikenut's message--to me--speaks to an evil far worse that we need to warily keep in our sights. That being gun owners ourselves, especially the organizations we belong to and lobby for us, going along with going backward on gun rights and criminalizing currently legal gun rights.

There is a saying: "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." I would add to that, "Being around power also corrupts." When you are lobbying and working with legislators, it tends to corrupt you. It's often not intentional by the lobbyists, and often it's not noticeable by them. Much like hypoxia, you're starting to get stupid and doing the wrong things but you don't notice it and you think you're doing fine, but that's only because the lack of oxygen to your brain is also impairing your awareness of yourself. When you're working with legislators, the urgency to get something done so you don't feel like you wasted part of your life couples with the heady feeling that you are a "player" in the power game. When others in the group start talking about "look let's consider criminalizing a little bit of this minority exercised right of open carry in order to get this bill we've been bleeding and sweating over to get passed", it's hard not to resist because you are unintentionally drunk (hypoxic) with the idea of getting SOMETHING accomplished so you don't have to go home and face your own self-criticism that you had your time wasted and you really weren't such a big "player".

We have to watch our gun lobbyists closely and yank some oxygen on their faces when necessary, especially when it comes to hypoxically going along with criminalizing currently legal gun rights. Yanking oxygen on their face comes in many forms, some examples being the posts here criticizing the criminalizations that were going to be in the recently failed SB 59. We have to put the oxygen mask on their face, and after they come back to full awareness, we have to tell them it's ok if they end up wasting their time and it's ok to not be a "player", as long as they are not going along with criminalizing gun rights away, one bill at a time.

Fortunately, our legislators and lobbyists live in the real world, where an all or nothing approach always yields 'none'. They've learned that they cannot ever satisfy the extremists that live out on the fringe of reality. Compromise is an everyday occurrence, in everyone's life; no exceptions. You compromise on the pay you receive, the hours you work, the prices you pay, the house you live in, which side of the bed you sleep on- the list goes on and on, ad infinitum. How do you go through a day without compromise? I know for a fact, you don't.

To believe that progress can be made without compromise is to deny reality. Possibly even could classify as a mental illness (narcissistic personality, to full blown psychopathy).

I OC everywhere, but I don't consider it with the same fervor that usually is reserved for religion. I support human rights, particularly the basic human right of survival. If I need to give up OC so a greater number of individuals can regain that basic human right, I'm OK with that.

That being said, I would push for dropping the age to obtain a CPL to 18 to replace OC, so that people who have reached that age can have that same basic human right.

Would I like to stop making compromises? Sure, but I don't think my company is going to give me a bigger paycheck, better office, etc, just because I say it must be so. So, we compromise.

Such is reality; such is life. If you believe you can go through life without compromise, be prepared for a life chock full of disappointment.
 

Ezerharden

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Dec 22, 2011
Messages
723
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Erie, MI
Fortunately, our legislators and lobbyists live in the real world, where an all or nothing approach always yields 'none'. They've learned that they cannot ever satisfy the extremists that live out on the fringe of reality. Compromise is an everyday occurrence, in everyone's life; no exceptions. You compromise on the pay you receive, the hours you work, the prices you pay, the house you live in, which side of the bed you sleep on- the list goes on and on, ad infinitum. How do you go through a day without compromise? I know for a fact, you don't.

To believe that progress can be made without compromise is to deny reality. Possibly even could classify as a mental illness (narcissistic personality, to full blown psychopathy).

I OC everywhere, but I don't consider it with the same fervor that usually is reserved for religion. I support human rights, particularly the basic human right of survival. If I need to give up OC so a greater number of individuals can regain that basic human right, I'm OK with that.

That being said, I would push for dropping the age to obtain a CPL to 18 to replace OC, so that people who have reached that age can have that same basic human right.

Would I like to stop making compromises? Sure, but I don't think my company is going to give me a bigger paycheck, better office, etc, just because I say it must be so. So, we compromise.

Such is reality; such is life. If you believe you can go through life without compromise, be prepared for a life chock full of disappointment.

+1 but I think you are trying to reason with an echo.
 

Shadow Bear

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Dec 17, 2010
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+1 but I think you are trying to reason with an echo.

You're right, but hopefully someone else will come along and realize that there is danger in being a fringe element, and reconsider their own position on life....

The media just LOVES the fringers......:rolleyes:
 
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