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Raggs

Raggs

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Wild Wild West Michigan
Arguably everyone who, not being a police officer, open carries is on the fringe. the mainstream gun owners don't do it, mainstream CPL holders don't do it, an extremely small percentage of the population do it, wouldn't that be the definition of fringe?


Shadow Bear said:
You're right, but hopefully someone else will come along and realize that there is danger in being a fringe element, and reconsider their own position on life....

The media just LOVES the fringers......:rolleyes:
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Ezerharden

Ezerharden

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Erie, MI
Raggs said:
Arguably everyone who, not being a police officer, open carries is on the fringe. the mainstream gun owners don't do it, mainstream CPL holders don't do it, an extremely small percentage of the population do it, wouldn't that be the definition of fringe?
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Even within a small group you can find extremes at both ends. The ones that are at those extremes are the "fringe" I believe ShaddowBear was referring to. I am a CPL holder yet I almost always OC, unless the situation dictates that CC would be wiser, i.e. family gatherings (some of my family think I am a fringe element because I carry all the time). And I hope, in time that by OC'ing, I and others will slowly convert the anti's that we are not the bad guys. Education and desensitization right?
 
S

scot623

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Oct 2, 2009
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Eastpointe, Michigan, USA
DanM said:
That should not be ignored, certainly, but Bikenut's message--to me--speaks to an evil far worse that we need to warily keep in our sights. That being gun owners ourselves, especially THE ORGANIZATIONS WE BELONG TO and lobby for US, going along with going backward on gun rights and criminalizing currently legal gun rights.
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Just to be clear, what gun groups do you belong to that are going backwards on gun rights?
 
DrTodd

DrTodd

Michigan Moderator
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Hudsonville , Michigan, USA
Shadow Bear said:
Fortunately, our legislators and lobbyists live in the real world, where an all or nothing approach always yields 'none'. They've learned that they cannot ever satisfy the extremists that live out on the fringe of reality. Compromise is an everyday occurrence, in everyone's life; no exceptions. You compromise on the pay you receive, the hours you work, the prices you pay, the house you live in, which side of the bed you sleep on- the list goes on and on, ad infinitum. How do you go through a day without compromise? I know for a fact, you don't.

To believe that progress can be made without compromise is to deny reality. Possibly even could classify as a mental illness (narcissistic personality, to full blown psychopathy).

I OC everywhere, but I don't consider it with the same fervor that usually is reserved for religion. I support human rights, particularly the basic human right of survival. If I need to give up OC so a greater number of individuals can regain that basic human right, I'm OK with that.

That being said, I would push for dropping the age to obtain a CPL to 18 to replace OC, so that people who have reached that age can have that same basic human right.

Would I like to stop making compromises? Sure, but I don't think my company is going to give me a bigger paycheck, better office, etc, just because I say it must be so. So, we compromise.

Such is reality; such is life. If you believe you can go through life without compromise, be prepared for a life chock full of disappointment.
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Is there some gradation of "compromise"? If there is, perhaps some people would think that in the negotiation too much has already been compromised. Maybe if one group compromises "too much", the ones with whom they are negotiating think that "they" really didn't hold the supposed points of contention very dear. Then it comes down to where does the truth of the argument really lie?
 
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DanM

DanM

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West Bloomfield, Michigan, USA
QUOTE REMOVED BY ADMINISTRATOR: Modifying another poster's comments is not appropriate.

I've been pretty clear in several posts in recent days with those who have asked me whether my opposition to criminalizing currently legal gun rights means I oppose compromise or concession generally. I've been pretty clear that it does not. In my post you respond to with the above, I specify the opposition, once again, is to criminalizing currently legal gun rights.

Is it your view that criminalizing a currently legal gun right is OK with you? If not, welcome to my club. If so, presumably you draw a red line at least around the specific gun-rights you exercise (types of firearms, types of carry, types of activities, etc.) so where's your red line? If no red line, you'd be willing to criminalize potentially all gun rights away and that wouldn't make sense. So, again if so, what's your red line and how do you justify it versus not other red lines, or the general red line around currently legal gun rights?
 
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Shadow Bear

Shadow Bear

Michigan Moderator
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Dec 17, 2010
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Grand Rapids
DrTodd said:
Is there some gradation of "compromise"? If there is, perhaps some people would think that in the negotiation too much has already been compromised. Maybe if one group compromises "too much", the ones with whom they are negotiating think that "they" really didn't hold the supposed points of contention very dear. Then it comes down to where does the truth of the argument really lie?
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The truth of negotiation is always somewhere near the middle. I made a pretty good living for 25+ years negotiating agreements between parties with diverging interests. Its a fine art, not some Machiavellian black magic. Give and take. From my perspective, OC across the board is an un-winnable position. Would I like to see CC in a PFZ without loss of OC in a PFZ? Sure. Would I deny 340,000 CPL holders the benefit of CC in a PFZ, just so I can OC there? I'm not such a hidebound ideologue to think that's an acceptable position.
 
Shadow Bear

Shadow Bear

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Dec 17, 2010
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Location
Grand Rapids
DanM said:
I've been pretty clear in several posts in recent days with those who have asked me whether my opposition to criminalizing currently legal gun rights means I oppose compromise or concession generally. I've been pretty clear that it does not. In my post you respond to with the above, I specify the opposition, once again, is to criminalizing currently legal gun rights.

Is it your view that criminalizing a currently legal gun right is OK with you? If necessary for the greater good, absolutely.

If not, welcome to my club.

If so, presumably you draw a red line at least around the specific gun-rights you exercise (types of firearms, types of carry, types of activities, etc.) so where's your red line? My line is more gray than red. my goal is to always come out of any negotiation with a better value for my client. In this situation, I see the 'client' as 340,000 CPL holders denied their basic human right of survival, and who don't care to, or want to, OC in a PFZ. OC or CC, it is their RIGHT to choose. Who are we to say they MUST do it OUR way, or not at all?

If no red line, you'd be willing to criminalize potentially all gun rights away and that wouldn't make sense.Agreed; the intent is to procure the greatest benefit for the greatest number of people.

So, again if so, what's your red line and how do you justify it versus not other red lines, or the general red line around currently legal gun rights? My ideal situation is constitutional carry from age 18 & up. Will I take 'baby steps' to get there? Yes. Full restoration of our rights may not happen in my lifetime, but I believe it CAN happen sometime, a little bit at a time.
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Comments above in blue.

We didn't lose our rights overnight; we will not get them back overnight, either.
 
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