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Thread: Michigan OC'er traveling to Indiana, Can I OC?

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    Regular Member Glock214's Avatar
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    Michigan OC'er traveling to Indiana, Can I OC?

    I'm traveling to Indiana today, and open carry on a daily basis here In Michigan. I recently learned I need to go to Indiana for a few days. And don't have a lot of time before I leave, can I open carry legally in Indiana? Or should I just conceal?
    Can someone send me the link to some key laws please.
    Michigan cpl holder.

    Thank you in advance,
    Glock214
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

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    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
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    Sorry for the late response, hope you enjoyed your trip to Indiana.

    For future reference and other readers:

    Indiana recognizes all other handgun carry licenses and makes no distinction between carrying openly or concealed.

    IC 35-47-2-21
    Recognition of retail dealers' licenses and licenses to carry handguns issued by other states
    Sec. 21. (a) Retail dealers' licenses issued by other states or foreign countries will not be recognized in Indiana except for sales at wholesale.
    (b) Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana.


    http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/cod.../ar47/ch2.html

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    "will be recognized according to the terms thereof" I have a KY conceal carry license. Does that mean if I carry, I have to conceal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by langzaiguy View Post
    "will be recognized according to the terms thereof" I have a KY conceal carry license. Does that mean if I carry, I have to conceal?
    Only if the terms of your license say that open carry is forbidden.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cce1302 View Post
    Only if the terms of your license say that open carry is forbidden.
    I respectfully disagree.

    Per Indiana Code:
    "Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana."

    Let's take Ohio resident with an "Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun." It clearly states on the back of the License, "...is permitted to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Ohio under requirements set forth in Ohio Revised Code Section 2923.125."

    ORC 2923.125 is silent on open carry of a firearm (the entire ORC is silent on open carry of a handgun).

    The question then becomes: Is the authority to openly carry a handgun subsumed in the authority to carry a concealed handgun pursuant to an Ohio concealed handgun license, particularly with the application of ORC 9.68?

    I can find no interpretation of IC 35-47-2-21 in any Indiana case law. Likely the issue has never been litigated.

    Since there is no license to "Open Carry" in Ohio, there would be no license to carry openly that Indiana could recognize.

    Take an extreme example for illumination purposes. Vermont that has constitutional carry. There is no license. Are you arguing that a Vermont resident could conceal or openly carry a weapon in Indiana when IC clearly states "licenses issued by other states will be recognized"?

    I would not want to test THAT interpretation. (take a look at any Vermont "reciprocity" map).

    I think you have a greater chance than not that a reasonable interpretation of IC 35-47-2-21 is that if you have an "Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun" that it needs to be concealed while in Indiana when you are not a resident of Indiana. A reasonable interpretation would also be that a Vermont resident doesn't have a license and could not carry in Indiana, concealed or openly.

    If you have case law or an interpretation that says otherwise, I'd love to see it.

    Until then, I prefer not to be the test case.
    Last edited by glockowner; 09-22-2013 at 08:31 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockowner View Post
    I respectfully disagree...
    Which is fine, but it has been debated in plenty of other threads here and elsewhere. No case law is found because it would be ridiculous to charge someone for carrying without being licensed when they are, in fact, licensed.

    Indiana does not distinguish between open and concealed methods of carrying a handgun, one is either licensed or not.

    If the terms of your license specifically prohibited open carry (though I'm not aware of any state that ties such a condition to the license itself), I suppose you could be charged for carrying that way here in Indiana as if you were unlicensed.

    However, the laws of the issuing state are not relevant to how one carries outside that state.

    There will never be a test case here because it won't be prosecuted.
    Last edited by ATM; 09-22-2013 at 08:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATM View Post
    There will never be a test case here because it won't be prosecuted.
    This is an extremely strong statement and potentially risky for someone that comes from another state and reads the representation that if you have a CHL, you can carry however you want in Indiana.

    There is clearly a risk. There is no guarantee that it won't be prosecuted. All it takes is an LEO and a prosecutor that want to send a message about non-Indiana residents openly carrying in the state.

    I think having an understanding of the risk and making an informed judgement about the risk is better than blindly accepting that it "won't be prosecuted."

    I'm curious, what makes you so confident it won't be prosecuted. I'm sure we could find a jurisdiction (Gary?) where the risk is fairly high.

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    Campaign Veteran ATM's Avatar
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    It would be folly in Indiana to attempt to prosecute a person with a recognized license to carry a handgun (by whatever name the issuing state or foreign country calls it, permit, etc.) for ...carrying a handgun.

    In states with a distinction of carry methods, perhaps, but that's not how Indiana code was written.

    Just don't try carrying with a license that's expired or been revoked - that would not be valid according to a term thereof.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockowner View Post
    I respectfully disagree.

    Per Indiana Code:
    "Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof but only while the holders are not residents of Indiana."

    Let's take Ohio resident with an "Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun." It clearly states on the back of the License, "...is permitted to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Ohio under requirements set forth in Ohio Revised Code Section 2923.125."

    ORC 2923.125 is silent on open carry of a firearm (the entire ORC is silent on open carry of a handgun).

    The question then becomes: Is the authority to openly carry a handgun subsumed in the authority to carry a concealed handgun pursuant to an Ohio concealed handgun license, particularly with the application of ORC 9.68?

    I can find no interpretation of IC 35-47-2-21 in any Indiana case law. Likely the issue has never been litigated.

    Since there is no license to "Open Carry" in Ohio, there would be no license to carry openly that Indiana could recognize.

    Take an extreme example for illumination purposes. Vermont that has constitutional carry. There is no license. Are you arguing that a Vermont resident could conceal or openly carry a weapon in Indiana when IC clearly states "licenses issued by other states will be recognized"?

    I would not want to test THAT interpretation. (take a look at any Vermont "reciprocity" map).

    I think you have a greater chance than not that a reasonable interpretation of IC 35-47-2-21 is that if you have an "Ohio License to Carry a Concealed Handgun" that it needs to be concealed while in Indiana when you are not a resident of Indiana. A reasonable interpretation would also be that a Vermont resident doesn't have a license and could not carry in Indiana, concealed or openly.

    If you have case law or an interpretation that says otherwise, I'd love to see it.

    Until then, I prefer not to be the test case.
    You'd better not even carry in Indiana at all. Your Ohio license says "is permitted to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Ohio" as you make clear in your post. As long as we're elevating things to the ridiculous, you might as well argue that Indiana recognizes your right to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Ohio because that's the terms of your license.

    Let's just go ahead and accelerate to ludicrous speed, shall we? Any state that issues a permit is out, too, since Indiana only recognizes licenses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ATM View Post
    It would be folly in Indiana to attempt to prosecute a person with a recognized license to carry a handgun (by whatever name the issuing state or foreign country calls it, permit, etc.) for ...carrying a handgun.

    In states with a distinction of carry methods, perhaps, but that's not how Indiana code was written.

    Just don't try carrying with a license that's expired or been revoked - that would not be valid according to a term thereof.
    It is ok that we agree to disagree.

    Carry on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cce1302 View Post
    You'd better not even carry in Indiana at all. Your Ohio license says "is permitted to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Ohio" as you make clear in your post. As long as we're elevating things to the ridiculous, you might as well argue that Indiana recognizes your right to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Ohio because that's the terms of your license.

    Let's just go ahead and accelerate to ludicrous speed, shall we? Any state that issues a permit is out, too, since Indiana only recognizes licenses.
    I think we actually agree. My *interpretation* is that the IC that controls carry and extends the license to Indiana, for concealed carry. My only issue is open carry in Indian on an Ohio CHL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cce1302 View Post
    You'd better not even carry in Indiana at all. Your Ohio license says "is permitted to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Ohio" as you make clear in your post. As long as we're elevating things to the ridiculous, you might as well argue that Indiana recognizes your right to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Ohio because that's the terms of your license.

    Let's just go ahead and accelerate to ludicrous speed, shall we? Any state that issues a permit is out, too, since Indiana only recognizes licenses.
    I think we actually agree. My *interpretation* is that the IC controls carry and extends the license to Indiana, for concealed carry. My only issue is open carry in Indiana with an Ohio CHL.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockowner View Post
    It is ok that we agree to disagree.

    Carry on.
    I understand that some hold a more cautious view than I, opting rather to avoid any possible misinterpretation and forgoing a means of carry not otherwise prohibited to a licensee in this state or even their own.

    Yet in past discussions here and elsewhere of carry method restrictions supposedly imposed upon out of state license holders which are "...recognized according to the terms thereof", I have offered to pony up the funds to fight what would be a misdemeanor charge in Indiana for unlicensed carry if anyone finds themselves prosecuted for such contrary to my position.

    No takers yet.

    Carrying on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockowner View Post
    I think we actually agree. My *interpretation* is that the IC controls carry and extends the license to Indiana, for concealed carry. My only issue is open carry in Indiana with an Ohio CHL.
    Oh no, we don't agree. I say that you can't carry in Indiana at all on an Ohio license because the terms of your license only recognize the state of Ohio. It's explicitly stated on the license.

    Indiana requires you to abide by the terms of your license, which only permits you to carry a concealed handgun in the state of Ohio. If you're going to cling to "only concealed" in spite of all logic to the contrary, then "only in Ohio" comes with it (and "only licenses, not permits").

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    Lightbulb

    Some say on this forum you follow the law of the state your in but then say it depends on what the out of state license says.[confused]

    Question to all saying a non Indiana resident can't open carry in Indiana. A Michigan resident without a carry license can open carry but with a Concealed Pistol License can also carry in the following 10 places:
    ------
    Bank

    Church or other house of religious worship

    Theatre

    Day care center

    A hospital

    Anyplace licensed to sell liquor

    School or school property

    Sports arena or stadium

    Entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

    Dormitory, classroom of a community college, college, or university
    ------

    So wouldn't my MI CPL be an OC license too?
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    Some say on this forum you follow the law of the state your in but then say it depends on what the out of state license says.[confused]

    Question to all saying a non Indiana resident can't open carry in Indiana. A Michigan resident without a carry license can open carry but with a Concealed Pistol License can also carry in the following 10 places:
    ------
    Bank

    Church or other house of religious worship

    Theatre

    Day care center

    A hospital

    Anyplace licensed to sell liquor

    School or school property

    Sports arena or stadium

    Entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more

    Dormitory, classroom of a community college, college, or university
    ------

    So wouldn't my MI CPL be an OC license too?
    Let me just throw this out here in case you hadn't heard: Indiana law does not differentiate between open and concealed.

    For the record (despite my baiting glockowner) I assert that Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof.

    What this seems to mean is that if there are any restrictions enumerated (terms) on the license itself i.e. you may only carry a specific type of handgun or if you are restricted to carrying a specific gun identified on your license by serial number (as some states do) you should probably stick with that. Also the expiration date, if your license is not good for life.

    Your license will not allow you to carry (open or concealed) on school property in Indiana (unless other specific conditions are met).
    Last edited by cce1302; 09-30-2013 at 05:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cce1302 View Post
    Let me just throw this out here in case you hadn't heard: Indiana law does not differentiate between open and concealed.

    For the record (despite my baiting glockowner) I assert that Licenses to carry handguns, issued by other states or foreign countries, will be recognized according to the terms thereof.

    What this seems to mean is that if there are any restrictions enumerated (terms) on the license itself i.e. you may only carry a specific type of handgun or if you are restricted to carrying a specific gun identified on your license by serial number (as some states do) you should probably stick with that. Also the expiration date, if your license is not good for life.

    Your license will not allow you to carry (open or concealed) on school property in Indiana (unless other specific conditions are met).
    Oh I agree with you. I am asking the question to those who disagree with us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Eagle View Post
    Question to all saying a non Indiana resident can't open carry in Indiana.
    The news media plays politics more than the politicians do.

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    Regular Member bobn911's Avatar
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    Let me say this, as a Michigan resident with a Michigan concealed pistol license, I have given a lot of LEO plenty of opportunity to arrest me by OC'ing in the state of Indiana in the last 6 years. I had a Elkhart city cop give me the 'stink eye' at the pharmacy dept at walmart once. I just told him I was legal and walked on. The point I'm trying to make is the state police of Indiana are silent on open carry as stated a number of times. They are the 'head' LEO community of the state. Later, Bob
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    Negated any *potential* issue.

    Negated the issue, perceived or real. Got a PA License to carry a firearm.

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