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Thread: Open Carry in a Car Maybe Just Got a Little Bit Safer

  1. #1
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    Open Carry in a Car Maybe Just Got a Little Bit Safer

    Below is a comment from Fourth Amendment dot com a very good legal blog by a criminal defense attorney.

    The link in the comment begins downloading the court opinion.

    This opinion would seem to partially remove a police pretext for a fishing expedition to traffic stop cars.

    Here's the comment:

    "Where two of three bulbs in a taillight were working, it was “in good working order” and the stop was unjustified. Post-conviction relief granted. State v. Brown, 2013 Wisc. App. LEXIS 36 (January 15, 2013).*"

    I've seen in another state where a single bulb burned out was enough to justify a fishing expedition traffic stop. Although, that one may not have been one bulb of three in one taillight assembly; it might have been one of three brake lights.

    To see the original comment and check out a great website that historians will be able to use to document the steady erosion of the Fourth Amendment (search and seizure) see here: www.fourthamendment.com
    The comment is under the posts dated 1/20/13.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-22-2013 at 06:04 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Re: Open Carry in a Car Maybe Just Got a Little Bit Safer

    How does this help, really? Our largest obstacle is State v Walls, wherein the powers that be declared that because a firearm wasn't visible to a casual observer from outside a vehicle, it was to be considered concealed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    How does this help, really? Our largest obstacle is State v Walls, wherein the powers that be declared that because a firearm wasn't visible to a casual observer from outside a vehicle, it was to be considered concealed.
    OK. So, state-defined concealed carry in a vehicle, but actual open carry in a vehicle just became potentially a little safer.

    The point is that cops can't traffic stop you if one bulb out of three in a taillate is burned out as a pretext for a fishing expedition.

    I myself have been the victim of two such fishing expeditions by police.

    Police often end these light-bulb stops with the lie that they are looking out for the driver's safety. The alternatives prove the lie.

    First, if he was really all that concerned about my safety, or the safety issue was all that important, he would have spare bulbs in his car.

    Second, if it wasn't a fishing expedition, all he would have to do is alert me to the burned-out bulb, and maybe give a written warning. But, no. They ask for license, registration and proof of insurance; and, then run the license for outstanding warrants, revocation, etc.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-23-2013 at 12:37 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Re: Open Carry in a Car Maybe Just Got a Little Bit Safer

    I get what you're saying, but taking one small thing off the gigantic list of crap reasons one can get pulled over for hardly qualifies as making OC in a car any safer to do.

    "You rolled through that stop sign/light."
    "You crossed the center line."
    "You didn't signal that turn soon enough."

    Etc.

    There are a multitude of reasons a cop can invent for initiating a traffic stop that are pretty much indisputable.

    Furthermore, I doubt local PDs will be sending out departmental memorandums notifying police that a single light out of four is not a good stop.

    So, scenario:

    I get pulled over for having a single bulb out while OCing.

    I get a warning for the light, but I'm being charged with carrying a concealed weapon in a vehicle.

    I might be able to get the case tossed based on your case finding, but I still have to go for a ride to get there.

    Net result is pretty much the same in the end.
    Last edited by NoTolerance; 01-23-2013 at 10:51 AM. Reason: Typos - stupid smartphones...

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    SNIP I get what you're saying, but making one small thing off the gigantic list of crap reasons one can get pulled over for hardly qualifies as making OC in a care any safer to do.
    No, no.

    You don't understand at all.

    This was a crushing victory for the 4th Amendment and human rights galaxy-wide!! The forces of tyranny are in full retreat!! The warrant clause is re-awakened with a vigor it could only dream of two centuries ago!!
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    As I read it it applies to vehicles that only have more the one bulb per side not one tail light being out.

    So if you have a vehicle that has more then one bulb per side. Then one bulb being out could not be used as PC.

    Another reason to go with LED tail lights one has many bulbs to keep you sefe.
    Personal Defensive Solutions professional personal firearms, edge weapons and hands on defensive training and tactics pdsolutions@hotmail.com

    Any and all spelling errors are just to give the spelling Nazis something to do

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    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    No, no.

    You don't understand at all.

    This was a crushing victory for the 4th Amendment and human rights galaxy-wide!! The forces of tyranny are in full retreat!! The warrant clause is re-awakened with a vigor it could only dream of two centuries ago!!
    You're slowly becoming my new hero. Just so you know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance
    I get pulled over for having a single bulb out while OCing.
    I get a warning for the light, but I'm being charged with carrying a concealed weapon in a vehicle.
    I might be able to get the case tossed based on your case finding, but I still have to go for a ride to get there.
    Net result is pretty much the same in the end.
    In the Brookfield church incident, the reason they didn't even try to charge me with ccw is that they didn't have a valid reason to stop my car.
    That got their charges tossed before they even really got started.
    I speak from experience when I tell you that it's a lot cheaper & less stressful to go that route than to go through the whole frustration & mess of a trial.

    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance
    [Citizen is] slowly becoming my new hero. Just so you know.
    I've enjoyed his writings for quite a while now. Makes a lot of sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by MLK, Jr
    The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort & convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge & controversy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proverbs 27:12
    A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions.
    The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.
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    Founder's Club Member protias's Avatar
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    If a cop wants to try to invent a way to pull you over, have a (or more than one) car camera, and tell him the video will prove otherwise.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. Thomas Jefferson (1776)

    If you go into a store, with a gun, and rob it, you have forfeited your right to not get shot - Joe Deters, Hamilton County (Cincinnati) Prosecutor

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    Quote Originally Posted by protias View Post
    If a cop wants to try to invent a way to pull you over, have a (or more than one) car camera, and tell him the video will prove otherwise.

    Be aware that what you tell an officer about his stop is irrelevant. If he thinks he has legal reason to do so he/she will not be dissuaded by your argument. Save it for the DA or judge.

    I went to 2 separate four hour training seminars put on by the Wisconsin Attorney General office regarding the concealed carry law. At both of them we were told, officially, open carry in a vehicle without a permit was legal. One of the people that stated this was Assistant AG Dave Perlman. They then went on to describe what constituted open carry in a vehicle and so on.

    I haven't a link for it right now, but I believe some of these seminars are on-line somewhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    Be aware that what you tell an officer about his stop is irrelevant. If he thinks he has legal reason to do so he/she will not be dissuaded by your argument. Save it for the DA or judge.

    I went to 2 separate four hour training seminars put on by the Wisconsin Attorney General office regarding the concealed carry law. At both of them we were told, officially, open carry in a vehicle without a permit was legal. One of the people that stated this was Assistant AG Dave Perlman. They then went on to describe what constituted open carry in a vehicle and so on.

    I haven't a link for it right now, but I believe some of these seminars are on-line somewhere.
    To the best of my knowledge, Walls still stands and there hasn't been any case law to the contrary. So unless you're driving an invisible car ( la Wonder Woman's jet), it stands to reason that you're still at risk if you don't have a permission slip.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    To the best of my knowledge, Walls still stands and there hasn't been any case law to the contrary. So unless you're driving an invisible car ( la Wonder Woman's jet), it stands to reason that you're still at risk if you don't have a permission slip.

    While you are technically correct, remember that state v Walls was decided under old law. Also, like I mentioned, there was training in what was open carry in a vehicle and what was not. We were told that a pistol on the dash was open carry, yet not reasonable suspicion for a stop unless other factors were present.

    But instead of getting into a debate about this, can we agree it's all ridiculous? Hopefully in a short period of time the citizens of this state will quickly realize that the "blood flowing in the streets" cry from the antis was all horse manure and we can achieve what every inch of soil in the U.S. should have had for 236+ years: Constitutional carry?! The concern about where a gun is and how it's carried/stored, etc. is so much crap I want to vomit out my eyeballs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    While you are technically correct, remember that state v Walls was decided under old law. Also, like I mentioned, there was training in what was open carry in a vehicle and what was not. We were told that a pistol on the dash was open carry, yet not reasonable suspicion for a stop unless other factors were present.
    That's encouraging to hear, but most people don't OC on the dash...

    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    But instead of getting into a debate about this, can we agree it's all ridiculous?
    Absolutely. In fact, it wasn't really my intention to debate. I was more or less attempting to clarify. I'd hate for someone that's unprepared to "take the ride" to drive by this thread and take your point as gospel truth.

    Until there's a new test case to put before the courts that takes our new laws into consideration, Walls is still there and is still a threat. And some cops have declared publicly that they don't care what our "top cop" has to say:

    "My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we'll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it," Flynn said. "Maybe I'll end up with a protest of cowboys. In the meantime, I've got serious offenders with access to handguns. It's irresponsible to send a message to them that if they just carry it openly no one can bother them." -- Milwaukee Police Chief Ed Flynn to the Milwaukee Journal, 04/21/2009, in response to Van Hollen's Advisory Memorandum

    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    They then went on to describe what constituted open carry in a vehicle and so on.
    This would be very useful information to see. I hope you might be able to share it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoTolerance View Post
    This would be very useful information to see. I hope you might be able to share it.
    The AAG himself stated in a manner that a normal sized person could see immediately when looking inside the vehicle. If in a holster it must be open, unobstructed by any articles of clothing, and immediately visible. Outside a holster above the door handle and immediately visible.

    I wish I could find another link where he said this. Having video of the AAG stating this would be a powerful tool. The one link I had is no longer any good.

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    Regular Member NoTolerance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pkbites View Post
    The AAG himself stated in a manner that a normal sized person could see immediately when looking inside the vehicle. If in a holster it must be open, unobstructed by any articles of clothing, and immediately visible. Outside a holster above the door handle and immediately visible.

    I wish I could find another link where he said this. Having video of the AAG stating this would be a powerful tool. The one link I had is no longer any good.
    Yet contraband sitting on the seat or in the center console (both well below the door handle) would be considered "plain view"...

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    if it wasn't in plain sight how did they see it ?

    but your correct a new case that sets that standard is needed.

    if cop followed you for more than a few minutes chances are your going to enter a school zone , then if he pulls you over you are breaking the law without a permission slip.

    OC in a car unless you know extremely well that you are not and will not enter a GFSZ can be problematic.

    an OC trip is likely going to have to be a short trip that starts and ends in the country and never passes thru a small town or city.

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