USA Carry Hating on Open Carry

SouthernBoy · Jan 27, 2013

Fallschirmjäger said:
D'ya ever wonder... why there doesn't seem to be any hatred or animosity from the Pro open-carry side towards those who choose to conceal? Maybe we're just the open and accepting ones?

Most CC'ers who virulently oppose open carry will usually explain their reasons either deliberately or by context in their postings. At least this is what I have seen on a number of websites. I too, find it curious and more than a bit frustrating that they are not in concert with both modes of carry whereas OC'ers most always fully support both open and concealed carry.

Now the one thing that so many who post on these various websites (and I have even encountered this on car enthusiast sites) is that they tend to look at the issues of carrying a firearm through the eyes and perceptions of the area in which they live. I can't tell you how many times I have run across people saying how the police would grab someone, throw them to the ground, and cuff them if the saw a handgun on their hip, regardless of whether or not it was legal. I don't know if they're exaggerating a might or if this is actually what might happen where they live, but they fail to see or understand that this doesn't happen everywhere. If they have seen this or heard of it where they live, they seem to naturally think that this is what would take place anywhere.

They fail to understand that there are places in the country where this would be extremely rare. But you can't tell them that. You can't say that just because this is the "norm" in New York doesn't mean it is anywhere close to normal in Virginia. Their eyes are tainted by their experiences, real or believed.

WalkingWolf · Jan 27, 2013

SouthernBoy said:
Most CC'ers who virulently oppose open carry will usually explain their reasons either deliberately or by context in their postings. At least this is what I have seen on a number of websites. I too, find it curious and more than a bit frustrating that they are not in concert with both modes of carry whereas OC'ers most always fully support both open and concealed carry.

I don't know the reason. I wonder if it has to do with the money and hoops they jumped through. Then makes them agitated that many OCers only have to put on a gun to exercise their rights.

eye95 · Jan 27, 2013

Here is the real difference between OC and CC, at least in most States, including the two I have OCed in: Alabama and Ohio.

OC is the right. CC is the licensed privilege to cover the firearm and is controlled by the State. I want to be in charge of my exercise of the right, so I OC. Heck, I haven't even gotten my CHL in Ohio yet. I will, but only because Ohio does (unconstitutionally, IMO) restrict the RKBA in a vehicle to license-holders. I am not prepared to be the test case on that one, so I will jump through their hoops to carry in a car without ending up in jail.

Eventually, however, they will have to be forced to recognize the RKBA almost everywhere, including in my home, in my car, and walking around the public byways.

One more thing: Notice who is respecting the choices of others and who is not. Who really believes in Liberty, and who believes in their personal ability to exercise a State-granted privilege? If you believe in the RKBA, you believe in OC. You may not choose to do it, but you respect the choice.

marshaul · Jan 27, 2013

That's right, carry in your car is a right, but concealed carry isn't.

Fallschirjmäger · Jan 27, 2013

75 Armed Men and Women Occupy Local Eatery

75 Armed Men and Women Occupy Local Eatery
On Saturday, the 26th of January 2013, a large group of armed men and women began to occupy a local eatery in downtown Atlanta, Georgia. Scruffy individuals in camouflage pants, suspender wearing ne'er-do-wells, and suited businessmen all mixed together with a common occupying purpose. The management of of US Cafe in Buckhead estimated that at one time up to seventy-five openly armed individuals occupied his establishment ordering a wide assortment of delicious burgers, quesadillas, and hot wings. He managed a few surreptitious pictures of the armed group.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/xdc1o0nr3stj3eo/JPS7bGD_yb

There are confirmed reports that an Atlanta Police Department made contact with the armed individuals, but it's rumored that he just pulled out his smartphone to show off pictures of Kydex holsters he had made as though he a proud papa showing off pictures of his children.

eye95 · Jan 27, 2013

Carry is the Right. Concealment of the fact that you are carrying is not protected as an enumerated right, and, based on State law, can be considered a privilege.

I know it is a fine line, and hard for some to wrap their minds around, but CC is two separable behaviors, carry (the Right) and concealment (not a right).

If the State does not stop me from carrying, I couldn't care less that they won't allow me to put fabric over that which I carry without taking their stupid courses, paying their stupid fees, and getting their stupid permission slip.

One of the problems of fighting for CC is that there is often a price to pay for the real Right, as happened in Ohio. Yeah, they now have licensed CC, but some of the exercise of the RKBA disappeared during that magic trick.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

slowfiveoh · Jan 27, 2013

"I find myself walking in a dark alley at night. the putrid stench of the days disposables and trash permeate the air. My day was long, hard, and tiring.
The economy being in the state of s*** that it is currently in doesn't help that I have had to pick up double shifts to even make the company profitable anymore.
Beats not having a job I suppose...

Even if I have to leave the office at 2am, at least I have an office to leave.

Suddenly from behind , the sound of approaching footsteps. The light over the door of the service entrance casts the shadow of he who tails me. It doesn't help that the angle makes him appear 10 feet tall, further enhancing my anxiety.

He must have noticed I am alone and seemingly unprotected as his footsteps quicken their pace to overtake mine. I break out into a full speed run and try to break away from my pursuer only to hear his footsteps fall as sure as my own.

In fear for my life and realizing that my pursuer is quicker than I, I dart into a doorway to make my stand.

Little does my pursuer know that I am CONCEALED CARRY GUY!

As my pursuer rounds the corner I see the clear outline of his drawn pistol. Clearly his intents are malicious.

I reach inside my coat and retrieve my pistol...

Concealed Carry Version:
"I reach into my jacket to retrieve my snubnose .38 with the speed and efficiency of the Shin Bet. The criminal who already had his pistol trained on me wets his pants and runs off like one of those yelping cartoon dogs. That'll show him!"

Reality:
"I reach into my jacket...*BLAM*..."

Ok now for the OC version...

OC Version of the story:
"I find myself walking in a dark alley at night. the putrid stench of the days disposables and trash permeate the air. My day was long, hard, and tiring.
The economy being in the state of s*** that it is currently in doesn't help that I have had to pick up double shifts to even make the company profitable anymore.
Beats not having a job I suppose...

Even if I have to leave the office at 2am, at least I have an office to leave.

Suddenly from behind , the sound of approaching footsteps. The light over the door of the service entrance casts the shadow of he who tails me. It doesn't help that the angle makes him appear 10 feet tall, further enhancing my anxiety.

All of a sudden the footsteps cease and the shadow seems to retract from whence it came.

I wake up the next morning and enjoy my cuppajoe while watching channel 18 news. Lo and behold some dock worker in the very alley behind our cannery I work at was killed last night. I wonder...."

Just stories. Right?

WalkingWolf · Jan 27, 2013

eye95 said:
Carry is the Right. Concealment of the fact that you are carrying is not protected as an enumerated right, and, based on State law, can be considered a privilege.

I know it is a fine line, and hard for some to wrap their minds around, but CC is two separable behaviors, carry (the Right) and concealment (not a right).

If the State does not stop me from carrying, I couldn't care less that they won't allow me to put fabric over that which I carry without taking their stupid courses, paying their stupid fees, and getting their stupid permission slip.

One of the problems of fighting for CC is that there is often a price to pay for the real Right, as happened in Ohio. Yeah, they now have licensed CC, but some of the exercise of the RKBA disappeared during that magic trick.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>

Yes, that also is one of the things that concern me. There seems to be a trend to link OC to CC permission cards. I fight it with everything I have, IMO it is just wrong.

marshaul · Jan 27, 2013

eye95 said:
Carry is the Right. Concealment of the fact that you are carrying is not protected as an enumerated right, and, based on State law, can be considered a privilege.

You need to wrap your head, once and for all, around the fact that rights are not granted, created, or defined by state law. Guess what? Texas and Florida ban open carry. Clearly, then, in these states, OC is the privilege and CC the right, correct? Those states which effectively ban carry altogether presumably have no right whatsoever, correct?

I know it is a fine line, and hard for some to wrap their minds around, but CC is two separable behaviors, carry (the Right) and concealment (not a right).

Declaring it so does not make it so.

If the State does not stop me from carrying, I couldn't care less that they won't allow me to put fabric over that which I carry without taking their stupid courses, paying their stupid fees, and getting their stupid permission slip.

That's nice. You must realize, of course, that your lack of concern for the legality of an activity holds no more authority to declare it a mere privilege than does state law. I also don't particularly care if hip-hop is illegal so long as the speech I make remains legal. Others might take issue with that, however.

You can't simply declare something not a right. And the happenstance existence of a law infringing upon some behavior doesn't automatically render that behavior privilege rather than right.

If you wish to argue that something is not a right, you must do so starting from a (preferably Jeffersonian) definition of right. Otherwise you're no better than the leftists who declare that there is no RKBA simply because localities have been restricting guns to some degree since time immemorial.

MKEgal · Jan 27, 2013

davidmcbeth said:
should do both at same time ... when you get disarmed w/the OC then your CC piece will be a big surprise

I've only found a handful (literally, about 5) of news stories about OCers being disarmed by common street criminals. More often the problem comes from LEO, and more often than that the criminal(s) see the pistol & don't even start the attack.

SouthernBoy said:
The one thing that CC'ers seem to overlook is the fact that when they are CC'ing properly (their sidearm is invisible and not printing), they look just like any other potential victim.

+1 I'm glad someone else has figured that out!

SouthernBoy said:
I can't tell you how many times I have run across people saying how the police would grab someone, throw them to the ground, and cuff them if the saw a handgun on their hip, regardless of whether or not it was legal.

That is exactly what our chief of police has said in the media he instructed his "troops" to do:
"My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we'll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it"
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/43347632.html
(about 3/4 of the way down)

I realize there are plenty of sensible, sane places in the USA where LEO take their oaths seriously & won't randomly attack a citizen. Wish I lived in one.
To make this more bipolar, our Sheriff is the one who has created such a stir by telling citizens they need to participate in their own defense & calling 911 while begging for mercy from the criminal is not their best option.

eye95 · Jan 27, 2013

Weren't you involved in a slap-down for very similar LEO misbehavior? Did someone not learn his lesson?

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<O>

OC for ME · Jan 28, 2013

tcox4freedom said:
I don't think it's USA Carry. It's just the NRA "Instructor" that wrote the article and makes his livelihood from promoting CC.

USA Carry permitted the opinion piece to be placed on their web site. USA Carry is CC centric. USA Carry dissuades OC.

FTG-05 · Jan 28, 2013

I think a lot of people who CC but hate OC are simply afraid. So as to not face nor express that fear, they come up with the standard list of arguments, that on the surface, sound great, but don't hold up to the cold light of reality (e.g. element of "surprise", shot first etc. etc. etc.).

The one exception to this theory are the CC-instructors who's bottom line is tied to training CCers per their state law. While I don't agree with it, I can understand their profit motive.

tcox4freedom · Jan 28, 2013

OC for ME said:
USA Carry permitted the opinion piece to be placed on their web site. USA Carry is CC centric. USA Carry dissuades OC.

I've been a member there for almost four years. I've never experienced an anti OC stance coming from anybody but some of the CC sheeple members.

Luke allows some instructors to submit articles & opinions. But, that doesn't mean he backs their opinions 100%. We used to have a LOT of discussions & debates about OC vs CC. Luke never interfered in any of them I was a part of.

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OC for ME · Jan 29, 2013

tcox4freedom said:
I've been a member there for almost four years. I've never experienced an anti OC stance coming from anybody but some of the CC sheeple members.

Luke allows some instructors to submit articles & opinions. But, that doesn't mean he backs their opinions 100%. We used to have a LOT of discussions & debates about OC vs CC. Luke never interfered in any of them I was a part of.

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I do not contend that USA Carry is "anti-OC" as are some rabid CCers, being CC centric is not "bad." When their focus is primarily CC they are tacitly discouraging OC. And in some cases the author(s) of submitted articles were permitted to openly, no pun intended, disparage OCers. OC and CC are two sides of the same coin in my view. Both methods of carry have their advantages. Apparently USA Carry does not hold that same view.

I submit the below for your consideration.

The Right to Bear Arms – Openly

Conversely, I say “Just because one person is not comfortable with weapons, doesn’t mean that gives that person the right to infringe on the rights of other people who are comfortable, and who are legally eligible, to carry weapons openly or concealed – loaded or not.”

http://www.usacarry.com/the-right-to-bear-arms-openly/

This is as close to promoting OC as this author gets. The article briefly reiterates that armed citizen(s) and unarmed citizens stopped the shooter in the Gabrielle Dee "Gabby" Giffords incident. The real thrust of this article is contained at the end of the article, the police can not protect you. There is no "promotion" of OC, or that OCing citizens may have been a deterrent. With no cops (with guns visible) present the shooter likely felt that he could proceed with his attack. A CCer does not provide a deterrent. Cops, with guns visible, are a deterrent. Just as a bunch of lawfully armed citizens, with guns visible, provide a deterrent. Where is USA Carry on relating this obvious fact.

Are You Crazy If You Open Carry?

I realize open carrying is your right. And by all means, if you want to exercise that right you should do it. In fact, I’m lucky enough to live in the great state of Virginia where open carry is legal and people do it all the time.

Personally though, you’ll never catch me open carrying. You see, I’m a very practical sort of guy. The only reason I carry a gun and spend hours at the range is for personal protection purposes. I’m not a competition shooter and I don’t own a tricked-out $3,000 1911. My firearm of choice is a Glock 19. (Yes it may be ugly, but if I pull the trigger I know it will go boom.)

http://www.usacarry.com/are-you-crazy-if-you-open-carry/

This article, specifically the underlined words, drip with derision re OC and OCers. These insults are well worn and often used by CCers. Where is USA Carry? Are contributors who are OC centric permitted to post similar language re CCers? Likely not.

One More Example Why You Should Always Use a Holster

We hear about these incidents every so often.

Guy has gun. Guy has no holster. Guy puts gun into pants. Guy shoots himself.

http://www.usacarry.com/one-more-example-why-you-should-always-use-a-holster/

This would not be of much concern for a OCer. That aspect is not mentioned. Where is USA Carry?

I am from South Carolina, the Pee Dee area, and I am currently working in the St. Louis Missouri area. I know that OC is unlawful in SC. If CCers in SC worked as diligently for OC as they work to maintain CC then state of SC would not be infringing upon Article I Section 20 of our state constitution.

Freedom1Man · Jan 29, 2013

WalkingWolf said:
Yes, that also is one of the things that concern me. There seems to be a trend to link OC to CC permission cards. I fight it with everything I have, IMO it is just wrong.

There is a guy in the Washington room making just that point. He can't seem to write or spell very well, but that is the same thing he was pointing out as happening. Adam.... something.

tcox4freedom · Jan 30, 2013

OC for ME said:
I do not contend that USA Carry is "anti-OC" as are some rabid CCers, being CC centric is not "bad." When their focus is primarily CC they are tacitly discouraging OC. And in some cases the author(s) of submitted articles were permitted to openly, no pun intended, disparage OCers. OC and CC are two sides of the same coin in my view. Both methods of carry have their advantages. Apparently USA Carry does not hold that same view.

I submit the below for your consideration.

This is as close to promoting OC as this author gets. The article briefly reiterates that armed citizen(s) and unarmed citizens stopped the shooter in the Gabrielle Dee "Gabby" Giffords incident. The real thrust of this article is contained at the end of the article, the police can not protect you. There is no "promotion" of OC, or that OCing citizens may have been a deterrent. With no cops (with guns visible) present the shooter likely felt that he could proceed with his attack. A CCer does not provide a deterrent. Cops, with guns visible, are a deterrent. Just as a bunch of lawfully armed citizens, with guns visible, provide a deterrent. Where is USA Carry on relating this obvious fact.

This article, specifically the underlined words, drip with derision re OC and OCers. These insults are well worn and often used by CCers. Where is USA Carry? Are contributors who are OC centric permitted to post similar language re CCers? Likely not.

This would not be of much concern for a OCer. That aspect is not mentioned. Where is USA Carry?

I am from South Carolina, the Pee Dee area, and I am currently working in the St. Louis Missouri area. I know that OC is unlawful in SC. If CCers in SC worked as diligently for OC as they work to maintain CC then state of SC would not be infringing upon Article I Section 20 of our state constitution.

Great post & thank you for taking the time to write it.

I'm in the Florence area of the PeeDee myself. When you get back from MO drop me a PM. (I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee or a cold sweet tea.)

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Z1P2 · Jan 30, 2013

Seems like a person could load an OC weapon with blanks and carry a concealed weapon that's actually loaded, that way the person would get the benefit of deterance and if by any chance someone got the drop on them and took their OC piece the criminal would be screwing around with the OC piece while the person would be pulling out their CC Piece and shooting the criminal. Seems like the best of both deterance and defense with the element of surprise. It's just a thought.

FTG-05 · Jan 30, 2013

Z1P2 said:
Seems like a person could load an OC weapon with blanks and carry a concealed weapon that's actually loaded, that way the person would get the benefit of deterance and if by any chance someone got the drop on them and took their OC piece the criminal would be screwing around with the OC piece while the person would be pulling out their CC Piece and shooting the criminal. Seems like the best of both deterance and defense with the element of surprise. It's just a thought.

This a variation of the "OC will be shot first" theory, which is largely a myth.

Please provide credible evidence that a criminal "got the drop" on an OCer in the US

nonameisgood · Jan 30, 2013

Uh. No.

And Texas went over 100 years prohibiting all carry of handguns. We were the first state to prohibit all carrying of handguns by the public. It took CC to get this back for us. Now that we can show that more guns in public hasn't resulted in more shootings, we are working on OC.

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