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Thread: NYPD "Scan and Frisk" machine sees guns under clothes

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    NYPD "Scan and Frisk" machine sees guns under clothes

    Take a looksie at this

    NYPD has a new machine intended to find Concealed weapons take a look at the picture too, this is not an officer based system, it's a frikin' machine set up on the side walk, this clearly to be a checkpoint style tool.

    scary stuff if ya ask me.
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    This isn't the first time I've seen this mentioned. I think it was roughly a year ago when I saw it mentioned that they were working on this, and I believe they said the goal was to "eventually" get it to where it could be mounted on vehicles so that they could simply drive by and try to find illegal weapons. Of course if it was anywhere but NY they would have 4A issues, but I'm sure in that state the whole "unreasonable search and seizure" part of the Bill of Rights will simply be ignored.

    I would say that they are still at least a few years off from being able to actually deploy this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    This isn't the first time I've seen this mentioned. I think it was roughly a year ago when I saw it mentioned that they were working on this, and I believe they said the goal was to "eventually" get it to where it could be mounted on vehicles so that they could simply drive by and try to find illegal weapons. Of course if it was anywhere but NY they would have 4A issues, but I'm sure in that state the whole "unreasonable search and seizure" part of the Bill of Rights will simply be ignored.

    I would say that they are still at least a few years off from being able to actually deploy this.
    Bloomberg will probably use it to locate smuggled large sodas as well.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Seems much like another "red light" camera tactic to me.
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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    One could really have immense amounts of fun playing with the NYPD's silly new toys.

    Anybody who lets one of these wastes of cash bust them is an idiot. lol

    That being said, I share the 4A concerns. This should not be tolerated.
    Last edited by marshaul; 01-24-2013 at 01:12 PM.

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    This looks like an instant win for anyone who gets creative. Some sheet metal with a gun outline and a refusal to search sounds like an instant win with the help of any sharp attorney.

    Illegal stop and search based on that scanner's reading.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    This isn't the first time I've seen this mentioned. I think it was roughly a year ago when I saw it mentioned that they were working on this, and I believe they said the goal was to "eventually" get it to where it could be mounted on vehicles so that they could simply drive by and try to find illegal weapons. Of course if it was anywhere but NY they would have 4A issues, but I'm sure in that state the whole "unreasonable search and seizure" part of the Bill of Rights will simply be ignored.

    I would say that they are still at least a few years off from being able to actually deploy this.
    Well the ACLU will be all over this .... NYC simply does not think the constitution exists.

    Chances of this pass muster: zero

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    I believe what we're seeing in the provided picture is the aperture/lens of the system (unless for some odd reason it's pointed at the second story of the building behind). It still requires an operator to monitor and make the determination that a gun may be present.

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    Regular Member linerider69's Avatar
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    Umm I am sorry officer i told you that wasn't my gun

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    It sounds as though this system will either randomly scan people or scan all people that pass it. It won't be scanning based on RAS or based on PC or because folks are agreeing to it ancillary to some voluntary or licensed activity for which participation requires agreement to scanning. Therefore, the scan is a violation of the right to privacy of all of its victims--even of those illegally carrying.

    While the scanners are clearly unconstitutional, there is no parallel to red light cameras. Driving is a licensed privilege (walking around town is not) and red light cameras record cars that are in the intersection during red lights for those cars. When the photo is taken, there is clear PC that the law against running red lights has been violated by the car being photographed. When the scanner spies on us, there is yet no PC nor RAS.

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    Re: NYPD "Scan and Frisk" machine sees guns under clothes

    If you think this is scary, look up the new drones coming out that are set, and forget.

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    I wonder if it will be mandatory for pedestrians to pass in front of the scanner. Now, will a citizen know that they are being "scanned?" Likely not. So are they afforded the opportunity to "opt out" of being "scanned?" The citizenry is not be scanned they are being observed if the article in the OP has the technical explanation explained correctly. NYC dwellers deserve the police protection they voted for.

    Also, I cannot wait for SCOTUS to rule on whether or not terahertz emanations fall under 4A protections. Recording cops in public comes to mind. Public is a two way street.....so to speak.

    Really folks? Really?
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    --snip--
    While the scanners are clearly unconstitutional, there is no parallel to red light cameras. Driving is a licensed privilege (walking around town is not) and red light cameras record cars that are in the intersection during red lights for those cars. When the photo is taken, there is clear PC that the law against running red lights has been violated by the car being photographed. When the scanner spies on us, there is yet no PC nor RAS.
    Not necessarily so - there are problems.

    http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/201...ras-legal.html
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    the nypd will soon deploy new technology allowing police to detect guns carried by criminals without using the typical pat-down procedure, police commissioner raymond kelly said wednesday.
    quoted from the linked article


    WOW, it will ONLY detect "guns carried by criminals
    without using the typical pat-down procedure"!!!!

    If this is an accurate portrail of the technology, my questions start with "what is the definition of CRIMINAL" and is it adjustable to comply with the various changes of the law at differing locations?

    WARNING: SOME sarcasm could be in this post as I don't think the claims made by the quoted official are accurate or even POSSIBLE1




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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    ...Also, I cannot wait for SCOTUS to rule on whether or not terahertz emanations fall under 4A protections. Recording cops in public comes to mind. Public is a two way street.....so to speak...
    There is a difference between what you do in public that is visible to all and what you have going on under your clothes. If what you say is carried to its logical extreme, you would have no expectation of privacy for your body under your clothes. Folks would be free to "scan" your naked body under your clothes, simply because you are walking about in public. I don't think so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    This looks like an instant win for anyone who gets creative. Some sheet metal with a gun outline and a refusal to search sounds like an instant win with the help of any sharp attorney.

    Illegal stop and search based on that scanner's reading.

    I'm thinking that any appellate court presented with such a scenario is going to look at two points.

    First, whether the scanner was constitional. For example, under the so-called special needs exception to the warrant clause. I'm betting there is an even chance a court would say the scanner is constitutional. Also, don't place your eggs on the federal decision against forward-looking infra-red (FLIR). That decision was aimed at using FLIR on a home (to detect heat from marijuana grow operations) where courts consider 4A protections strongest, not walking down the street or driving a car.

    If the court finds the scanner constitutional, the next question is whether the scanner image presents RAS of a crime--illegally carrying a concealed handgun. The court wouldn't even have to reach probable cause, just RAS. Here is why I say that. If the court decides the scanner image creates RAS, then Terry kicks in, authorizing a non-consensual stop. And, since the item in question is a weapon, the court would say a patdown for officer safety is justified. Don't bother to argue with me that Terry requires reasonable suspicion the detainee is both armed and dangerous. You and I know what Terry says. But, I have never seen a court bother with that distinction after Terry.

    It wouldn't matter whether the scanned object was actually a gun; just that it was reasonable for the cop to suspect a gun based on the scanner image. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the court made the same determination for an object scanned at a funny angle that only suggested it might be a gun. Same for a too-long knife where blade length is restricted.

    Courts have a real knack for siding with police and government; my money says there's a good chance a court would side with police.

    I've been speaking of jurisdictions where licensed concealed carry is almost non-existent. For example, NYC, Maryland, Illinois. It might play out differently in a place like AZ or VA where licensed CCW is a lot more common. Instead of RAS for a crime, a court might find justification for a police demand to see a CCW license. But, then again, maybe not. Wasn't it Georgia or something where a federal court said a CCW license provided an exception to the state prohibition on CCW, meaning the cop had RAS of a CCW offense, justifying a Terry Stop even if the person was licensed to carry concealed?
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-24-2013 at 07:59 PM.
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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Re: NYPD "Scan and Frisk" machine sees guns under clothes

    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    One could really have immense amounts of fun playing with the NYPD's silly new toys.

    Anybody who lets one of these wastes of cash bust them is an idiot. lol

    That being said, I share the 4A concerns. This should not be tolerated.
    My thought was to carry a right angle tool hidden. On that crappy image it would look the same as a firearm. Have that happen enough and you might have some nice lawsuits assuming you survived, considering that it is NYC.

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    NYPD "Scan and Frisk" machine sees guns under clothes

    No, I think it's safe to say this is a symptom of a diseased government in action. Spying on Muslims, ignoring the whole constitution, and generally being responsible for bringing down the US economy.

    Why don't the voters up there step up and demand observance of our most basic rights (not specifically guns.)

    NYC ike a cancer on the USA. Too bad Sandy didn't just wash it away.

    (If that's too harsh, blame my flu.)

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    My thought was to carry a right angle tool hidden. On that crappy image it would look the same as a firearm. Have that happen enough and you might have some nice lawsuits assuming you survived, considering that it is NYC.

    Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2
    What if you lined your clothes with tin foil (then we'd start making jokes about "tin foil pants" – hah hah!)? Are citizens going to now be required to wear clothes compliant with the government's new scanning machines, or face arbitrary police detainment?

    Hah. This whole thing is so ridiculous. New York is such a ridiculous place. Why people live, visit, or even drive through there is beyond me. I know I don't. BTDT.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonameisgood View Post
    ]NYC ike a cancer on the USA. Too bad Sandy didn't just wash it away.
    No, no. We should just cede it to China. Nobody living there would notice any difference, and the rest of us could get on with our lives, that much better without New York spraying its perpetual political sharts all over the rest of the nation.

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    How about the fact that anyone who has this used on them is being Irradiated? And considering that Terahertz, the kind used, radiation can split your DNA in half like a zipper I think they would be dumb to try this... I may just have to fly to NYC to get irradiated by accident and then sue for assault to my DNA

    http://www.technologyreview.com/view...ear-apart-dna/
    Source ^

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tolerance View Post
    How about the fact that anyone who has this used on them is being Irradiated? And considering that Terahertz, the kind used, radiation can split your DNA in half like a zipper I think they would be dumb to try this... I may just have to fly to NYC to get irradiated by accident and then sue for assault to my DNA

    http://www.technologyreview.com/view...ear-apart-dna/
    Source ^
    Supposedly, this particular devices only passively captures emitted radiation, rather than actively generating and observing reflected radiation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Courts have a real knack for siding with police and government; my money says there's a good chance a court would side with police.

    I've been speaking of jurisdictions where licensed concealed carry is almost non-existent. For example, NYC, Maryland, Illinois. It might play out differently in a place like AZ or VA where licensed CCW is a lot more common. Instead of RAS for a crime, a court might find justification for a police demand to see a CCW license. But, then again, maybe not. Wasn't it Georgia or something where a federal court said a CCW license provided an exception to the state prohibition on CCW, meaning the cop had RAS of a CCW offense, justifying a Terry Stop even if the person was licensed to carry concealed?
    First your point about the courts, is one that I not only agree with but have made that same point time and time again using different language of course.

    As for AZ no CCW/CPL required anymore, which is part the reason I have thought about moving there.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Take a looksie at this

    NYPD has a new machine intended to find Concealed weapons take a look at the picture too, this is not an officer based system, it's a frikin' machine set up on the side walk, this clearly to be a checkpoint style tool.

    scary stuff if ya ask me.
    Sounds like the kids will have to adopt a new fashion that includes aluminum foil and other strips of metal.
    If something is wrong for ONE person to do to another, it is still wrong if a BILLION people do it.

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    Regular Member Steeler-gal's Avatar
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    NYPD "Scan and Frisk" machine sees guns under clothes

    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Take a looksie at this

    NYPD has a new machine intended to find Concealed weapons take a look at the picture too, this is not an officer based system, it's a frikin' machine set up on the side walk, this clearly to be a checkpoint style tool.

    scary stuff if ya ask me.
    I think I've seen this before. They don't need it now that they've outlawed all pistols. No one will be carrying in NY any longer.
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