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NYPD "Scan and Frisk" machine sees guns under clothes

Aknazer

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This isn't the first time I've seen this mentioned. I think it was roughly a year ago when I saw it mentioned that they were working on this, and I believe they said the goal was to "eventually" get it to where it could be mounted on vehicles so that they could simply drive by and try to find illegal weapons. Of course if it was anywhere but NY they would have 4A issues, but I'm sure in that state the whole "unreasonable search and seizure" part of the Bill of Rights will simply be ignored.

I would say that they are still at least a few years off from being able to actually deploy this.
 

trailblazer2003

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This isn't the first time I've seen this mentioned. I think it was roughly a year ago when I saw it mentioned that they were working on this, and I believe they said the goal was to "eventually" get it to where it could be mounted on vehicles so that they could simply drive by and try to find illegal weapons. Of course if it was anywhere but NY they would have 4A issues, but I'm sure in that state the whole "unreasonable search and seizure" part of the Bill of Rights will simply be ignored.

I would say that they are still at least a few years off from being able to actually deploy this.

Bloomberg will probably use it to locate smuggled large sodas as well.
 

marshaul

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One could really have immense amounts of fun playing with the NYPD's silly new toys.

Anybody who lets one of these wastes of cash bust them is an idiot. lol

That being said, I share the 4A concerns. This should not be tolerated.
 
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Freedom1Man

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This looks like an instant win for anyone who gets creative. Some sheet metal with a gun outline and a refusal to search sounds like an instant win with the help of any sharp attorney.

Illegal stop and search based on that scanner's reading.
 

davidmcbeth

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This isn't the first time I've seen this mentioned. I think it was roughly a year ago when I saw it mentioned that they were working on this, and I believe they said the goal was to "eventually" get it to where it could be mounted on vehicles so that they could simply drive by and try to find illegal weapons. Of course if it was anywhere but NY they would have 4A issues, but I'm sure in that state the whole "unreasonable search and seizure" part of the Bill of Rights will simply be ignored.

I would say that they are still at least a few years off from being able to actually deploy this.

Well the ACLU will be all over this .... NYC simply does not think the constitution exists.

Chances of this pass muster: zero
 

Fallschirjmäger

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I believe what we're seeing in the provided picture is the aperture/lens of the system (unless for some odd reason it's pointed at the second story of the building behind). It still requires an operator to monitor and make the determination that a gun may be present.
 

eye95

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It sounds as though this system will either randomly scan people or scan all people that pass it. It won't be scanning based on RAS or based on PC or because folks are agreeing to it ancillary to some voluntary or licensed activity for which participation requires agreement to scanning. Therefore, the scan is a violation of the right to privacy of all of its victims--even of those illegally carrying.

While the scanners are clearly unconstitutional, there is no parallel to red light cameras. Driving is a licensed privilege (walking around town is not) and red light cameras record cars that are in the intersection during red lights for those cars. When the photo is taken, there is clear PC that the law against running red lights has been violated by the car being photographed. When the scanner spies on us, there is yet no PC nor RAS.
 

mpguy

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If you think this is scary, look up the new drones coming out that are set, and forget.

Sent from my Motorola Galaxy s3 using Tapatalk 2
 

OC for ME

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I wonder if it will be mandatory for pedestrians to pass in front of the scanner. Now, will a citizen know that they are being "scanned?" Likely not. So are they afforded the opportunity to "opt out" of being "scanned?" The citizenry is not be scanned they are being observed if the article in the OP has the technical explanation explained correctly. NYC dwellers deserve the police protection they voted for.

Also, I cannot wait for SCOTUS to rule on whether or not terahertz emanations fall under 4A protections. Recording cops in public comes to mind. Public is a two way street.....so to speak.

Really folks? Really?
 

Grapeshot

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--snip--
While the scanners are clearly unconstitutional, there is no parallel to red light cameras. Driving is a licensed privilege (walking around town is not) and red light cameras record cars that are in the intersection during red lights for those cars. When the photo is taken, there is clear PC that the law against running red lights has been violated by the car being photographed. When the scanner spies on us, there is yet no PC nor RAS.

Not necessarily so - there are problems.

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2011/06/are-red-light-cameras-legal.html
 

JoeSparky

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the nypd will soon deploy new technology allowing police to detect guns carried by criminals without using the typical pat-down procedure, police commissioner raymond kelly said wednesday.
quoted from the linked article


WOW, it will ONLY detect "guns carried by criminals
without using the typical pat-down procedure"!!!!

If this is an accurate portrail of the technology, my questions start with "what is the definition of CRIMINAL" and is it adjustable to comply with the various changes of the law at differing locations?

WARNING: SOME sarcasm could be in this post as I don't think the claims made by the quoted official are accurate or even POSSIBLE1




 

eye95

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...Also, I cannot wait for SCOTUS to rule on whether or not terahertz emanations fall under 4A protections. Recording cops in public comes to mind. Public is a two way street.....so to speak...

There is a difference between what you do in public that is visible to all and what you have going on under your clothes. If what you say is carried to its logical extreme, you would have no expectation of privacy for your body under your clothes. Folks would be free to "scan" your naked body under your clothes, simply because you are walking about in public. I don't think so.
 

Citizen

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This looks like an instant win for anyone who gets creative. Some sheet metal with a gun outline and a refusal to search sounds like an instant win with the help of any sharp attorney.

Illegal stop and search based on that scanner's reading.


I'm thinking that any appellate court presented with such a scenario is going to look at two points.

First, whether the scanner was constitional. For example, under the so-called special needs exception to the warrant clause. I'm betting there is an even chance a court would say the scanner is constitutional. Also, don't place your eggs on the federal decision against forward-looking infra-red (FLIR). That decision was aimed at using FLIR on a home (to detect heat from marijuana grow operations) where courts consider 4A protections strongest, not walking down the street or driving a car.

If the court finds the scanner constitutional, the next question is whether the scanner image presents RAS of a crime--illegally carrying a concealed handgun. The court wouldn't even have to reach probable cause, just RAS. Here is why I say that. If the court decides the scanner image creates RAS, then Terry kicks in, authorizing a non-consensual stop. And, since the item in question is a weapon, the court would say a patdown for officer safety is justified. Don't bother to argue with me that Terry requires reasonable suspicion the detainee is both armed and dangerous. You and I know what Terry says. But, I have never seen a court bother with that distinction after Terry.

It wouldn't matter whether the scanned object was actually a gun; just that it was reasonable for the cop to suspect a gun based on the scanner image. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the court made the same determination for an object scanned at a funny angle that only suggested it might be a gun. Same for a too-long knife where blade length is restricted.

Courts have a real knack for siding with police and government; my money says there's a good chance a court would side with police.

I've been speaking of jurisdictions where licensed concealed carry is almost non-existent. For example, NYC, Maryland, Illinois. It might play out differently in a place like AZ or VA where licensed CCW is a lot more common. Instead of RAS for a crime, a court might find justification for a police demand to see a CCW license. But, then again, maybe not. Wasn't it Georgia or something where a federal court said a CCW license provided an exception to the state prohibition on CCW, meaning the cop had RAS of a CCW offense, justifying a Terry Stop even if the person was licensed to carry concealed?
 
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Baked on Grease

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One could really have immense amounts of fun playing with the NYPD's silly new toys.

Anybody who lets one of these wastes of cash bust them is an idiot. lol

That being said, I share the 4A concerns. This should not be tolerated.

My thought was to carry a right angle tool hidden. On that crappy image it would look the same as a firearm. Have that happen enough and you might have some nice lawsuits assuming you survived, considering that it is NYC.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2
 

nonameisgood

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No, I think it's safe to say this is a symptom of a diseased government in action. Spying on Muslims, ignoring the whole constitution, and generally being responsible for bringing down the US economy.

Why don't the voters up there step up and demand observance of our most basic rights (not specifically guns.)

NYC ike a cancer on the USA. Too bad Sandy didn't just wash it away.

(If that's too harsh, blame my flu.)
 

marshaul

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My thought was to carry a right angle tool hidden. On that crappy image it would look the same as a firearm. Have that happen enough and you might have some nice lawsuits assuming you survived, considering that it is NYC.

Sent from my SCH-I800 using Tapatalk 2

What if you lined your clothes with tin foil (then we'd start making jokes about "tin foil pants" – hah hah!)? Are citizens going to now be required to wear clothes compliant with the government's new scanning machines, or face arbitrary police detainment?

Hah. This whole thing is so ridiculous. New York is such a ridiculous place. Why people live, visit, or even drive through there is beyond me. I know I don't. BTDT.
 

marshaul

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]NYC ike a cancer on the USA. Too bad Sandy didn't just wash it away.

No, no. We should just cede it to China. Nobody living there would notice any difference, and the rest of us could get on with our lives, that much better without New York spraying its perpetual political sharts all over the rest of the nation.
 
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