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Thread: Proposed Open Carry Ban HB4104

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Proposed Open Carry Ban HB4104

    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post

    We saw it coming with the last SB59. So many so called 2A supporters were quick to give up their right to open carry they were bound to make a bill banning it. This is for the next compromise ... Not surprised at all..

    (6) AN INDIVIDUAL SHALL NOT INTENTIONALLY DISPLAY OR OPENLY
    11 CARRY A PISTOL ON THE PREMISES LISTED IN SUBSECTION (1)(A) TO (I)
    12 UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL OWNS THE PREMISES DESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION (1)
    13 OR IS EMPLOYED OR CONTRACTED BY THE OWNER OR OTHER PERSON WITH
    14 CONTROL OVER THE PREMISES DESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION (1), THE
    15 POSSESSION OF THE PISTOL IS TO PROVIDE SECURITY SERVICES FOR THE
    16 PREMISES OR IS OTHERWISE IN THE SCOPE OF THE INDIVIDUAL'S OFFICIAL
    17 DUTIES, OR THE INDIVIDUAL IS ACTING WITH THE EXPRESS WRITTEN
    18 CONSENT OF THE OWNER OF THE PREMISES OR AN AGENT OF THE OWNER OF
    19 THE PREMISES. THIS SUBSECTION APPLIES BEGINNING MAY 1, 2013.

    Thanks to the MOC library debacle. We get them trying to add this to the PFZ's:

    (I) A PUBLIC LIBRARY AS DEFINED IN SECTION 2 OF THE STATE AID
    16 TO PUBLIC LIBRARIES ACT, 1977 PA 89, MCL 397.552.


    Is a pile of OCDO people and MOC for this bill too?
    Last edited by mikestilly; 01-24-2013 at 10:06 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    We now need to all contact our reps. Call them not just once, but every time you deem it necessary to update them. And email them often. Post your letters here, so that others may copy and paste them too.

  4. #4
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    We saw it coming with the last SB59. So many so called 2A supporters were quick to give up their right to open carry they were bound to make a bill banning it. This is for the next compromise ... Not surprised at all..

    (6) AN INDIVIDUAL SHALL NOT INTENTIONALLY DISPLAY OR OPENLY
    11 CARRY A PISTOL ON THE PREMISES LISTED IN SUBSECTION (1)(A) TO (I)
    12 UNLESS THE INDIVIDUAL OWNS THE PREMISES DESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION (1)
    13 OR IS EMPLOYED OR CONTRACTED BY THE OWNER OR OTHER PERSON WITH
    14 CONTROL OVER THE PREMISES DESCRIBED IN SUBSECTION (1), THE
    15 POSSESSION OF THE PISTOL IS TO PROVIDE SECURITY SERVICES FOR THE
    16 PREMISES OR IS OTHERWISE IN THE SCOPE OF THE INDIVIDUAL'S OFFICIAL
    17 DUTIES, OR THE INDIVIDUAL IS ACTING WITH THE EXPRESS WRITTEN
    18 CONSENT OF THE OWNER OF THE PREMISES OR AN AGENT OF THE OWNER OF
    19 THE PREMISES. THIS SUBSECTION APPLIES BEGINNING MAY 1, 2013.

    Thanks to the MOC library debacle. We get them trying to add this to the PFZ's:

    (I) A PUBLIC LIBRARY AS DEFINED IN SECTION 2 OF THE STATE AID
    16 TO PUBLIC LIBRARIES ACT, 1977 PA 89, MCL 397.552.


    Is a pile of OCDO people and MOC for this bill too?
    Actually once Snyder learned that OC was legal in those areas, it was just a matter of time until this was tried. This would have occurred regardless of SB59 so give it a rest already. Now is not the time to beat that dead horse again, now is the time to work against this new bill.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  5. #5
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Somehow I doubt the answer is in the Declaration of Independence. The British are long gone.
    Why even feed stainlesses trolling?

  6. #6
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Why even feed stainlesses trolling?
    Good point, sorry. It is just my automatic allergic reaction to bovine excrement
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  7. #7
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    I do have one compliment for this bill. At least it is logical, versus the last iteration of SB 59. It is logical that anti-gunners would go after OC. It is illogical that Michigan gun organizations went after OC.

    Anti-gunners are going after OC. At least this bill makes sense.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  8. #8
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I do have one compliment for this bill. At least it is logical, versus the last iteration of SB 59. It is logical that anti-gunners would go after OC. It is illogical that Michigan gun organizations went after OC.

    Anti-gunners are going after OC. At least this bill makes sense.
    You just can't let it rest can you? Will you bring SB59 up for the next ten years?
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  9. #9
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Proposed Open Carry Ban HB4104

    Changed my mind. Won't waste my breath on this thread. It'll be fun to watch you guys get worked up on a bill that'll never see committee though.

    Don't forget to take your blood pressure medication.
    Last edited by TheQ; 01-24-2013 at 11:01 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  10. #10
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    You just can't let it rest can you? Will you bring SB59 up for the next ten years?
    This is an open carry advocacy website. I am an open carry advocate. I will take opportunities to keep present threats to OC fresh in everyone's minds. Frequent reminders of present threats keeps everyone informed on what to be on the lookout for. We want to constantly be on the lookout for threats to OC.

    Michigan gun organizations involved recently in SB 59 tried to criminalize some open carry in the recent past. None have confirmed they would not repeat such compromising on OC in the future. None have indicated to what limit they would refrain from throwing OC under the bus. Therefore, those Michigan gun organizations are among the present threats to OC in Michigan.

    I will bring up SB 59 as often as need be as a reminder of this particular present threat to OC, until it is no longer a present threat to OC. It will cease being a present threat when the MI gun orgs state they are no longer in the business of criminalizing OC to advance their own or others' agendas.
    Last edited by DanM; 01-24-2013 at 11:41 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  11. #11
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    This is an open carry advocacy website. I am an open carry advocate. I will take opportunities to keep present threats to OC fresh in everyone's minds. Frequent reminders of present threats keeps everyone informed on what to be on the lookout for. We want to constantly be on the lookout for threats to OC.

    Michigan gun organizations involved recently in SB 59 tried to criminalize some open carry in the recent past. None have confirmed they would not repeat such compromising on OC in the future. None have indicated to what limit they would refrain from throwing OC under the bus. Therefore, those Michigan gun organizations are among the present threats to OC in Michigan.

    I will bring up SB 59 as often as need be as a reminder of this particular present threat to OC, until it is no longer a present threat to OC. It will cease being a present threat when the MI gun orgs state they are no longer in the business of criminalizing OC to advance their own or others' agendas.
    Whatever Dan. You keep sounding the horn of discontent. Of course those MI gun rights groups you are disparaging have done a hell of a lot more for gun rights (open carry included) than anything I have seen you do as of yet. Don't bother to respond, as I doubt I will even waste my time reading this thread any longer. I am tired of arguing with absolutists.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  12. #12
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Michigan gun organizations involved recently in SB 59 tried to criminalize some open carry in the recent past.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

  13. #13
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Changed my mind. Won't waste my breath on this thread. It'll be fun to watch you guys get worked up on a bill that'll never see committee though.

    Don't forget to take your blood pressure medication.
    Phil if you aren't going to comment then don't. It seems you know something about this bill and could add insightful reasoning but you choose not too. Why is that?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  14. #14
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    DanM, While you have made it clear in the past that I am no OC advocate I agree that OC will be pt on the table the frist time it is needed, with the blessing of gun organizations.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    This is an open carry advocacy website. I am an open carry advocate. I will take opportunities to keep present threats to OC fresh in everyone's minds. Frequent reminders of present threats keeps everyone informed on what to be on the lookout for. We want to constantly be on the lookout for threats to OC.

    Michigan gun organizations involved recently in SB 59 tried to criminalize some open carry in the recent past. None have confirmed they would not repeat such compromising on OC in the future. None have indicated to what limit they would refrain from throwing OC under the bus. Therefore, those Michigan gun organizations are among the present threats to OC in Michigan.

    I will bring up SB 59 as often as need be as a reminder of this particular present threat to OC, until it is no longer a present threat to OC. It will cease being a present threat when the MI gun orgs state they are no longer in the business of criminalizing OC to advance their own or others' agendas.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  15. #15
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Whatever Dan. You keep sounding the horn of discontent. Of course those MI gun rights groups you are disparaging have done a hell of a lot more for gun rights (open carry included) than anything I have seen you do as of yet. Don't bother to respond, as I doubt I will even waste my time reading this thread any longer. I am tired of arguing with absolutists.
    I'm an individual and gun groups are numerous individuals, makes sense they do more. I'm a reasonable person who deals in facts. Not sure of your point, though.

    If being opposed to criminalization of currently legal gun rights is "absolutist", I plead guilty as charged.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  16. #16
    Regular Member PDinDetroit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Changed my mind. Won't waste my breath on this thread. It'll be fun to watch you guys get worked up on a bill that'll never see committee though.

    Don't forget to take your blood pressure medication.
    Didn't we see Royal Oak, Berkley, and Huntington Woods try to Ban Firearms from Public Buildings back in 2010 (and some of us showed up to discuss the matter with them)? Doesn't Jim Townsend (D) Represent those Districts, who we see as one of the Three (3) Bill Sponsors?

    BTW - There is another bill to Ban Firearms from Public Libraries by these same Three (3) Bill Sponsors:

    http://legislature.mi.gov/doc.aspx?2013-HB-4105

    With only Three (3) Bill Sponsors, it seems unlikely to even be heard in Committee, but these did get referred to the Committee on Local Government so I am not sure about that Committee. I am torn between:

    1) Give these bills the attention they deserve: None

    2) Write My Representative and give him a piece of my mind.
    Rights are like muscles. You must EXERCISE THEM to keep them from becoming atrophied.

  17. #17
    Regular Member HKcarrier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post

    I will bring up SB 59 as often as need be as a reminder of this particular present threat to OC, until it is no longer a present threat to OC. It will cease being a present threat when the MI gun orgs state they are no longer in the business of criminalizing OC to advance their own or others' agendas.


    Didn't we already hash this out? If you were for shall issue CPL, then you are operating on a logical fallacy. It was shown to you that the shall issue law did exactly what you are so against in SB59. Grant a right for many more people than it removed a right from, and it did indeed remove rights.

    Your droning has long passed over to harping and beating a dead horse.

    Before you further damage your credibility I suggest you abandon your repeated error.

    You are making yourself look petty and immature with the repeated pokes and stabs.
    When you put the gun in the holster, put the ego in the gun safe.

  18. #18
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    Didn't we already hash this out? If you were for shall issue CPL, then you are operating on a logical fallacy. It was shown to you that the shall issue law did exactly what you are so against in SB59. Grant a right for many more people than it removed a right from, and it did indeed remove rights.

    Your droning has long passed over to harping and beating a dead horse.

    Before you further damage your credibility I suggest you abandon your repeated error.

    You are making yourself look petty and immature with the repeated pokes and stabs.
    +1. it's to the point that i don't even enjoy coming here anymore, every thread turns into DanM on his soapbox, and it's been going on for over a month now.
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  19. #19
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Perhaps since the bill further limits CC in addition to adding yet another area where a CPL holder won't be able to legally Conceal Carry, the chances of this passing are slim. However, if it did get through the legislature, the Governor would most likely sign it.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Changed my mind. Won't waste my breath on this thread. It'll be fun to watch you guys get worked up on a bill that'll never see committee though.

    Don't forget to take your blood pressure medication.
    Considering the bill is sponsored by 3 Dems, I agree with you. I don't think it will get out of committee.
    Big Gay Al
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  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    Perhaps since the bill further limits CC in addition to adding yet another area where a CPL holder won't be able to legally Conceal Carry, the chances of this passing are slim. However, if it did get through the legislature, the Governor would most likely sign it.
    Just one more reason to make sure he's a one term governor.
    Big Gay Al
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    Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal FNX-45 .45ACP 16 rounds of hurt.

  22. #22
    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HKcarrier View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by DanM
    I will bring up SB 59 as often as need be as a reminder of this particular present threat to OC, until it is no longer a present threat to OC. It will cease being a present threat when the MI gun orgs state they are no longer in the business of criminalizing OC to advance their own or others' agendas.
    . . . beating a dead horse.
    What part of "It will cease being a present threat when the MI gun orgs state they are no longer in the business of criminalizing OC to advance their own or others' agendas" did you not understand?

    I agree with your implied suggestion not to beat a dead horse, but there's no dead horse here. MI gun orgs remain a threat to OC until they communicate otherwise. The beatings shall continue on a regular basis while the horse is alive, in order keep it in the minds of OC advocates here to watch everything the MI gun orgs do on bills.

    This is an OC advocacy website. Threats to criminalizing OC partially or completely are to be constantly kept alive in our minds, so that we watch diligently and act swiftly to stop it. It doesn't matter if the threat is an anti-gun or pro-gun org, legislator, or individual. Present threats to criminalizing OC are legitimate and relevant to "keep the chatter up" about in order to maintain them in a prime space on our radar.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    What part of "It will cease being a present threat when the MI gun orgs state they are no longer in the business of criminalizing OC to advance their own or others' agendas" did you not understand?

    I agree with your implied suggestion not to beat a dead horse, but there's no dead horse here. MI gun orgs remain a threat to OC until they communicate otherwise. The beatings shall continue on a regular basis while the horse is alive, in order keep it in the minds of OC advocates here to watch everything the MI gun orgs do on bills.

    This is an OC advocacy website. Threats to criminalizing OC partially or completely are to be constantly kept alive in our minds, so that we watch diligently and act swiftly to stop it. It doesn't matter if the threat is an anti-gun or pro-gun org, legislator, or individual. Present threats to criminalizing OC are legitimate and relevant to "keep the chatter up" about in order to maintain them in a prime space on our radar.

    Dan, while I completely agree with you, you're getting the flack because the only few active people left on here are fully on board with supporting criminalizing OC in the name of CC with a fee, extra lame training that would have done zero, and added limitations such as allowing public institutions to opt out of our right to carry. I've given up hope that some of our old active people who gave up on MOC and people from OCDO would return. The reason why Evil couldnt get a few people together for a march is because everyone has fled here in mass and I don't blame them. Go ahead now and commence flaming me and bring on the personal attacks because I gave my opinion. Isn't that what OCDO is all about now?
    Last edited by mikestilly; 01-25-2013 at 07:18 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Not true, I am not at all on board with this. I think giving up OC rights for CC is not the way to go. Sadly I am clearly in the minority as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikestilly View Post
    Dan, while I completely agree with you, you're getting the flack because the only few active people left on here are fully on board with supporting criminalizing OC in the name of CC with a fee, extra lame training that would have done zero, and added limitations such as allowing public institutions to opt out of our right to carry. I've given up hope that some of our old active people who gave up on MOC and people from OCDO would return. The reason why Evil couldnt get a few people together for a march is because everyone has fled here in mass and I don't blame them. Go ahead now and commence flaming me and bring on the personal attacks because I gave my opinion. Isn't that what OCDO is all about now?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  25. #25
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: Proposed Open Carry Ban HB4104

    Dan, I agree we need to keep the events of the past few months in mind. However, I think that it was a good survey of how things are at the present in the OC community... and the larger gun rights community as well. Hopefully we can get the idea across that by allowing those that oppose certain smaller groups of gun owners to dictate the terms when discussing the issue of firearms, it legitimizes the notion that gun owners are quick to give away stated beliefs for priveleges.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 01-25-2013 at 10:04 PM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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