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Thread: A change of tactics...

  1. #1
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    A change of tactics...

    Ok... we have tried logic to show how the right to keep and bear arms is a God given right not subject to man's infringements..

    And failed.

    We have tried to use the bargaining tactic of "compromise" in hopes of keeping the right to keep and bear arms alive...

    And failed.... quite miserably I might say.

    Methinks the message of the 2nd Amendment is falling on deaf ears because folks aren't interested in discussions about "rights" but are interested in what affects them in their personal lives right now here today.

    Perhaps, and this is of course my personal opinion, it is time to stop using the tactics of "logic" and "compromise" and go straight to using the same tactics the anti gunners are using...

    That of fear mongering and appealing to the noble cause of preventing violence and loss of life.

    Imagine if the right to bear arms were framed in a way that shows carrying a gun means never having to be afraid of being robbed, or beaten, or raped. That if carrying a gun will keep a stalker ex husband/boyfriend at bay.

    And that if a person has a gun they can defend their children from bad people during the time from the 911 call and when the cops show up.

    That if carrying a gun means never having to be afraid of gang bangers... or robbers at the local 7/11... or car jackers... or those who would prey upon your children.

    Perhaps if the message is presented in these terms ... people will listen because they do understand being afraid and have the burning desire to not need to be afraid... and if we can change the narrative from being afraid of guns to being afraid of not being able to shoot the bad guys we might have a chance.

    Edited to add:

    As unsavory as it may seem... perhaps it is time to use Saul Alinsky against those most fervent believers in his teachings.

    http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm

    Rules for Radicals
    By Saul Alinsky - 1971
    Background information "Obama learned his lesson well. I am proud to see that my father's model for organizing is being applied successfully beyond local community organizing to affect the Democratic campaign in 2008. It is a fine tribute to Saul Alinsky as we approach his 100th birthday." --Letter from L. DAVID ALINSKY, son of Neo-Marxist Saul Alinsky








    Last edited by Bikenut; 01-25-2013 at 05:56 PM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: A change of tactics...

    @ Bikenut. As always my friend you are spot on. I truly hope this tact of reframing our points to make the bulk of the U.S. public uderstand that indeed they should be paying attention to the push by the gun grabbers. You and I know it's really a power grab, nothing more.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    --snipped--
    Imagine if the right to bear arms were framed in a way that shows carrying a gun means never having to be afraid of being robbed, or beaten, or raped. That if carrying a gun will keep a stalker ex husband/boyfriend at bay.

    And that if a person has a gun they can defend their children from bad people during the time from the 911 call and when the cops show up.

    That if carrying a gun means never having to be afraid of gang bangers... or robbers at the local 7/11... or car jackers... or those who would prey upon your children.

    --snipped--
    I think that is precisely what we have been doing for sometime now - at least as it pertains to OCing in Virginia

    Remember gunzine writer John Connor's piece titled Little Lizzie? There was a powerful message in his story.
    http://www.handgunrepairshop.com/Why...rry_a_gun.html
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Perhaps, and this is of course my personal opinion, it is time to stop using the tactics of "logic" and "compromise" and go straight to using the same tactics the anti gunners are using...

    That of fear mongering and appealing to the noble cause of preventing violence and loss of life.
    I share that personal opinion. I've often thought, while the anti-gunners line up 32 people and have them lay down in a pathetic re-creation of victimhood, why doesn't the NRA or other gun group with broad media power or access regularly gather together for a press conference 32, 64, or more gun owners who've saved their own lives or others lives through use of a gun?

    It would be a great tactic. There's hardly anything better for opposing an anti-gunner on the ground faking death than 2 or 3 people who will get in front of a news camera and tell their story of being alive through proper use of a gun.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

  5. #5
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I share that personal opinion. I've often thought, while the anti-gunners line up 32 people and have them lay down in a pathetic re-creation of victimhood, why doesn't the NRA or other gun group with broad media power or access regularly gather together for a press conference 32, 64, or more gun owners who've saved their own lives or others lives through use of a gun?

    It would be a great tactic. There's hardly anything better for opposing an anti-gunner on the ground faking death than 2 or 3 people who will get in front of a news camera and tell their story of being alive through proper use of a gun.
    Excellent idea! After all... the anti gun message is effective because it cuts right past logic and evokes an emotional response. The very powerful emotional response of connecting guns with the fear of death. But perhaps that powerful emotional response can be turned around by showing that with a gun a person can defend their lives and not die.

    Oh... and maybe we can use Senator Feinstien to help present that message...

    http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...y-permit-story

    because what she says at the 1 minute mark in the video (can someone with more knowledge imbed that video please?) on that website is what folks need to understand..... guns are about self defense.

    And at this time I believe (my opinion) in order to win the war against guns instead of trying to work with the logic of the 2nd Amendment and/or statistics we need to do the same thing the anti's are doing and appeal to the emotion of fear... . Make the argument touch the personal fears of the common person who really doesn't think in terms of "rights" or tyranny in their daily lives but they most certainly do think in terms of being afraid of bad guys.

    Change the narrative. Make it personal. Hammer home the idea that "Only a good guy with a gun can stop a bad guy with a gun. And YOU and I are the good guys."
    Last edited by Bikenut; 01-26-2013 at 07:51 AM.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    People typically only relate to what things impact their lives, it is a selfish trait of the human mind, that is pervasive and always existed. You are on the right track, and I found my greatest successes at converting a liberal gun hater to a "gun nut" is to relate the use of a gun in their terms of understanding.

    To a gay person I mention gay bashing and look for examples of a gay person defending their life with a gun.

    To s single woman I use a rape prevention, or violence of a crazy ex boyfriend as examples.

    I also use the fine examples of the NRA site of the many self defense acts carried out by children shooting or scaring away thugs who did home invasions. These are great examples that often wake up people to rethink their positions.

    http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed...-30,-2012.aspx

    A story like this link above hits home with many.....

    Here below is a type of story that I use to relate to those in the city who are always in fear of random pit bull attacks.

    http://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen.aspx

    We have literally thousands of these examples only a google search away, from many sites, even LIBERAL gun hating media outlets.

    This one below usually stuns a liberal and if they have children they relate to this potential tragedy because one of their greatest fears is loosing a child to some home invasion psychopath.

    http://www.wafb.com/story/10741492/c...-home-break-in

    I would advise everyone to download and make a copy of many of these because as always when the gun control debate escalates the media stops telling these stories because it hurts their control freak point of view. I keep many stored on the hard drive.

    Also I invite and challenge a liberal and use the word fear which makes them want to show they don't fear guns to attend a range and let them shoot.... Yes it hooks most of them on the spot. Recently I had this hard core liberal kid age 21 who knew it all. Hates guns feared me because I had one. I challenged him by saying he was terrified of guns which he denied so off the the range I took him. Now he wants to own guns after a 30 minute run with an AR-15 and this kid was a gun hating activist, now he preaches pro guns messages to others in his liberal group of friends and associates. Also make sure I am there for any questions he may have. It is needed to get the word out, as examples indeed do speak louder than mere words.

    We need most of all that thing we lost back in the 1970's and before, we need to take young people hunting, and shooting as it imprints them with the truth by example, not liberal theology.

    Bikenut your point is well taken with me.

    +1



    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Ok... we have tried logic to show how the right to keep and bear arms is a God given right not subject to man's infringements..

    And failed.

    We have tried to use the bargaining tactic of "compromise" in hopes of keeping the right to keep and bear arms alive...

    And failed.... quite miserably I might say.

    Methinks the message of the 2nd Amendment is falling on deaf ears because folks aren't interested in discussions about "rights" but are interested in what affects them in their personal lives right now here today.

    Perhaps, and this is of course my personal opinion, it is time to stop using the tactics of "logic" and "compromise" and go straight to using the same tactics the anti gunners are using...

    That of fear mongering and appealing to the noble cause of preventing violence and loss of life.

    Imagine if the right to bear arms were framed in a way that shows carrying a gun means never having to be afraid of being robbed, or beaten, or raped. That if carrying a gun will keep a stalker ex husband/boyfriend at bay.

    And that if a person has a gun they can defend their children from bad people during the time from the 911 call and when the cops show up.

    That if carrying a gun means never having to be afraid of gang bangers... or robbers at the local 7/11... or car jackers... or those who would prey upon your children.

    Perhaps if the message is presented in these terms ... people will listen because they do understand being afraid and have the burning desire to not need to be afraid... and if we can change the narrative from being afraid of guns to being afraid of not being able to shoot the bad guys we might have a chance.

    Edited to add:

    As unsavory as it may seem... perhaps it is time to use Saul Alinsky against those most fervent believers in his teachings.

    http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm

    Rules for Radicals
    By Saul Alinsky - 1971
    Background information "Obama learned his lesson well. I am proud to see that my father's model for organizing is being applied successfully beyond local community organizing to affect the Democratic campaign in 2008. It is a fine tribute to Saul Alinsky as we approach his 100th birthday." --Letter from L. DAVID ALINSKY, son of Neo-Marxist Saul Alinsky









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    The NRA has been so smeared by the media most people automatically genuflect and resist the message. It is best we engage people in debates and teach them by examples. We can take them shooting as we all know shooting is so much fun it's almost addictive as a great cup of coffee lol. I have taken women of all ages shooting and often with invitation to their husbands or significant others in tow, and to be honest I so far have had a 100% favorable result. Several are now weekly shooters for fun and sport. Once you expose them to the reality and fun, they are now open to a whole new REAL world they become to enjoy. They often become the very serious gun sports types because of this new found passion they never knew they could have.

    You are correct, the wonderful reality will eventually shut out the trickery and lies of the leftists.



    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I share that personal opinion. I've often thought, while the anti-gunners line up 32 people and have them lay down in a pathetic re-creation of victimhood, why doesn't the NRA or other gun group with broad media power or access regularly gather together for a press conference 32, 64, or more gun owners who've saved their own lives or others lives through use of a gun?

    It would be a great tactic. There's hardly anything better for opposing an anti-gunner on the ground faking death than 2 or 3 people who will get in front of a news camera and tell their story of being alive through proper use of a gun.

  8. #8
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    I'm down for helping with this in any way I can. I think it's a fabulous approach in fact.

    The question is what to go out and do about it?

    There is no doubt that our community can make some serious noise for the news if we put our minds to it. But with the massive nature of the current political battle, we're not talking about any easy task.

    What we have, which has worked well for us in the past, is a fairly solid network with this and other states organizations, news media contacts, experts at every aspect of the issue of firearms, and past experience with dispensing thousands upon thousands of fliers to get the correct information out.

    The problem I see, if we're going to get this going full force is planning and unity.

    I do agree with alphamale, that one of the best ways to convert a non shooter to a shooter, assuming they are mentally stable enough to trust themselves with a gun and not suffering from a major case of self distrust and projection (and if they do have that problem you'll know because they'll never ever take you up on any such offers), is to take them shooting, and I would say to teach them all about gun safety and combative shooting. The twofold problem here is that any political effect from this is a teardrop in the atlantic ocean, as well as the fact that most ranges don't allow realistic shooting, at least not in this region, and realistic shooting is I feel paramount to a new shooter feeling empowered by being armed.
    Last edited by Michigander; 01-26-2013 at 11:10 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    --snip--

    I do agree with alphamale, that one of the best ways to convert a non shooter to a shooter, assuming they are mentally stable enough to trust themselves with a gun and not suffering from a major case of self distrust and projection (and if they do have that problem you'll know because they'll never ever take you up on any such offers), is to take them shooting, and I would say to teach them all about gun safety and combative shooting. The twofold problem here is that any political effect from this is a teardrop in the atlantic ocean, as well as the fact that most ranges don't allow realistic shooting, at least not in this region, and realistic shooting is I feel paramount to a new shooter feeling empowered by being armed.
    Gun safety and traditional range shooting are the way to go initially - make it a fun time, let them enjoy the experience w/o the pressure and tress of any advanced techniques.

    Agree that the experience will sell itself,
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training.” Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    While handling, using, and storing guns safely is necessary and range time is a good thing... before any of that can happen a person's mind must first be opened to the idea that guns can be a good thing... hence...

    I read something where someone else suggested things similar to the following..... and I have begun to do it too.

    Instead of talking about the 2nd Amendment or the law I try to make how a gun can save lives a personal point.

    If I'm talking with someone on the fence I try to use a real world example such as... -->you could use a gun in a couple of seconds to stop your wife from being raped while the cops are minutes away from showing up and writing a report about how your wife was raped... which would YOUR WIFE prefer? (If the wife is standing there.. all the better!)<--.

    If I'm talking to a rabid anti gunner I would use the same kind of example... -->you could use a gun in a couple of seconds to stop a bad man but if you wait for the police to come the bad man has more than enough time to hurt your child/grandchild while you stand there yelling into the phone. Imagine not having a gun and knowing it's your own fault you are unable to stop a bad man from hurting your child/grandchild while you wait for the police to show up.<--... but the idea with an anti gunner isn't to convince them since their minds are made up... it is to reach all the folks standing around watching the show.... including the child.

    In short... I've quit being the "nice guy" talking about statistics and rights and laws. I'm getting right down to the nitty gritty real world of how guns stop bad guys and how folks who don't have guns can't stop bad guys from hurting them.. or hurting their children. I'm presenting it in a way that shows how NOT having a gun puts them and their loved ones in danger.

    And I'm getting all Saul Alinsky on them by using the same tactics the anti gunners use... I am diminishing the anti gun perspective.. I am demeaning those who think guns are scary.. and I am unashamedly ridiculing those who are unwilling to defend themselves and ... especially! ... unwilling to defend those who depend upon them for protection. I am using.... "Think of the children!" ... in reverse.

    Is that harsh? Well...I think it is time to stop the ineffective methods we have been using and base our responses on people's everyday personal realities.

    Now, as DanM mentioned, if we could get that perspective into the media somehow.........
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Gun safety and traditional range shooting are the way to go initially - make it a fun time, let them enjoy the experience w/o the pressure and tress of any advanced techniques.

    Agree that the experience will sell itself,


    What I have been doing as a hobby for a while now is taking first time shooters to an outdoor range, which is actually a spot in the middle of no where on state land, and taking 5-7 hours to teach them first safety, then the fundamentals, then the fairbairn/sykes/applegate methods with a few added modern twists, and I've found it to work extremely well. (People who already have the fundamentals of target shooting down take about 3 hours to learn the rest). Part of my approach is to use a clothed dummy on a stand, and have them practice retention shooting and other up close drills in as realistic of a manner as possible. You can take it further and also use airsoft drills to incorporate getting off the x type stuff, but this can end up taking more time than may be available.

    What I feel strongly about, is that the NRA class method of not even using silhouettes, and not incorporating movement, is a terrible strategy which leaves many people with little if any more confidence than when they started the range session. I feel quite strongly in fact that the best way to teach someone is to make them understand why and how guns can be carried safely, and why they will give them a better chance of success at surviving an attack. This is crucial, because it can take someone who is mentally stable yet afraid of the unknown to them gun, and replace those feelings with a sense of mastery and confidence.
    Last edited by Michigander; 01-27-2013 at 05:02 PM.

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    How about "How many bullets does it take to protect a child from someone so high on drugs they eat the faces off the homeless? If it saves one child we need to keep high capacity magazines." From no less authority than NPR: http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/...-eating-attack

    I think it's time to call it for what it is--bigotry and pound on it.

    I posted the following in response to an article by Dick Cavett in the NYT. The language is a lot puffed to mock the style of the other writers. I'll be adding info but honing it down to short, sweet and to the point for letters to our political reps et al. For this forum I've left out a couple of lines that mock Dick's use of the usual sexual innuendo.



    Whether this conversation demonizing firearms owners is in ringing academic tones or uneducated Southern drawl coming through white sheets the bottom line is the same: stereotyping, irrational fears, prejudice and willful ignorance. Bigotry. Firearms control laws have a fine history of racism and the current suggestions for laws that punish the responsible 99.5% for the sins of the .5% fall right in line with that history of bigotry.

    The stereotypes include equating firearms with violence and decent firearms owners with depraved criminals and child molesters. The willful ignorance is of the NRA's original charter and ongoing tradition of promoting safe and responsible firearms ownership and severe punishment for criminal use. The willful ignorance is failing to have a clue about current firearms sports and the quality of people who participate.

    Proposed laws such as firearms bans, registration and insurance assume guilt and put a burden on the decent 99.5% while doing nothing to control the actual criminals.

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    I also think we need to emphasize recreation rather than supporting prejudices and stereotypes about firearms being all about violence by focusing on self defense. These people need to be reminded that there are over 100,000 decent and responsible owners who did NOT shoot those children, who send thousands of rounds downrange in venues that have exceptional sportsmanship an safety records (better than other sports) for each round fired in violence. Push the idea of the 99.5% being wronged by the .5%--the OWS has made a similar phrase popular (or unpopular) so should ring a bell with all the "progressives".
    Last edited by Guy B. Meredith; 02-15-2013 at 09:27 PM.

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    I like the idea.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I have a couple observations to make:

    We haven't "failed". Given the entire last century of history, gun rights are at never-before seen levels of support, and we've made advances we couldn't have dreamed of in the past. A couple setbacks are unfortunate, but don't change that fact. I'm not saying we should concede a single thing to those who oppose our rights, but this notion that we're failing and they're succeeding is hysterical.

    It's funny hearing Brady Bunchers admit that handguns are good for home defense. 20 years ago, it would have been in the realm of fantasy land to suggest that Brady Bunchers might ever do this. The should indicate how much they've had to compromise their goals to even stay relevant. And you can take some solace in that they're the ones making concessions. At this point, taking handguns for home defense isn't even something you can talk about, where once upon a time it was politically viable to argue exactly that.

    Second observation is that pro-gun folks use just about every tactic in the book. We use logic, reason, propaganda, activism, and the classic American tactic of buying the crap out of something you don't want to go away (they never did manage to meaningfully "ban" marijuana, did they?), something not considered by the "genius" Alinsky.

    The late Saul Alinsky and his silly little boy could learn a thing or two from us. Fortunately their ilk is too self-absorbed to do this.

    There is one rule which is widely ignored by us, at least in the inflammatory and counter-productive rhetoric of some, which we would do well to always remember:

    RULE 11: “If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive.” Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog.
    The other side hopes to provoke us into this. Always remember that.
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-16-2013 at 12:04 AM.

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    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I have a couple observations to make:

    We haven't "failed". Given the entire last century of history, gun rights are at never-before seen levels of support, and we've made advances we couldn't have dreamed of in the past. A couple setbacks are unfortunate, but don't change that fact. I'm not saying we should concede a single thing to those who oppose our rights, but this notion that we're failing and they're succeeding is hysterical.

    It's funny hearing Brady Bunchers admit that handguns are good for home defense. 20 years ago, it would have been in the realm of fantasy land to suggest that Brady Bunchers might ever do this. The should indicate how much they've had to compromise their goals to even stay relevant. And you can take some solace in that they're the ones making concessions. At this point, taking handguns for home defense isn't even something you can talk about, where once upon a time it was politically viable to argue exactly that.

    Second observation is that pro-gun folks use just about every tactic in the book. We use logic, reason, propaganda, activism, and the classic American tactic of buying the crap out of something you don't want to go away (they never did manage to meaningfully "ban" marijuana, did they?), something not considered by the "genius" Alinsky.

    The late Saul Alinsky and his silly little boy could learn a thing or two from us. Fortunately their ilk is too self-absorbed to do this.

    There is one rule which is widely ignored by us, at least in the inflammatory and counter-productive rhetoric of some, which we would do well to always remember:



    The other side hopes to provoke us into this. Always remember that.
    It's good to see someone else is paying attention to how the leftists use old Saul Alinsky's teachings to push their elitist agenda.

    But I'm beginning to think that, and I quote from your post ... "use logic, reason, propaganda, activism, and the classic American tactic of buying the crap out of something you don't want to go away"... isn't enough. Perhaps we need to not only use those things but also start using the same tactics espoused by Alinsky against the leftist elitists.

    For anyone not familiar with Saul Alinsky following the link below will be an eye opener.... especially the part about Obama......

    http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/communism/alinsky.htm
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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