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Thread: Armed man in Idaho Capital building.

  1. #1
    Regular Member bowb's Avatar
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    Armed man in Idaho Capital building.

    Someone open carrying "piggybacked" on a scout tour of the Capitol building and went into the chambers and looked and legislators' papers and and took pictures of some of them.

    http://www.idahostatesman.com/2013/0...-unnerves.html

    Before this incident the man had attended an ACLU "know your rights" training event. He put the training to use when approached by security and he told security that if he was not under arrest or being detained that he was not answering any questions.

    Favorite quote from the article Senate President Pro Tem Brent Hill said: “To think that somebody is bold enough to have followed these children around with a sidearm in plain sight — who is also bold enough to go through trash cans, take pictures of representatives’ desks and shuffle their papers — all of that created a great deal of concern.”

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    Armed with a potato gun I assume...

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    Interesting that most of the comments were not too critical.

    I think I know the guy. He's very knowledgeable on state and local laws. Nice guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    Interesting that most of the comments were not too critical.

    I think I know the guy. He's very knowledgeable on state and local laws. Nice guy.
    Well, unfortunately, whoever this guy was was an idiot and has put a REALLY bad name on OC for most of the legislators here. I am working at the Capitol as an Intern during the session. The biggest deal is that he shuffled through folks papers on the floor and apparently took pictures. As a result, security has been heightened and a lot more doors are being locked. There is nothing Idaho State Legislators hate more than having to deal with doors being locked. While all legislators I have talked to about the incident said that they don't mind OC, but they really disliked the idea of people just walking into the House or Senate Chambers and looking through people's papers. It is just rude and has made a TERRIBLE impression for OC'ers in the Idaho Legislature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JK Idaho View Post
    Well, unfortunately, whoever this guy was was an idiot and has put a REALLY bad name on OC for most of the legislators here. I am working at the Capitol as an Intern during the session. The biggest deal is that he shuffled through folks papers on the floor and apparently took pictures. As a result, security has been heightened and a lot more doors are being locked. There is nothing Idaho State Legislators hate more than having to deal with doors being locked. While all legislators I have talked to about the incident said that they don't mind OC, but they really disliked the idea of people just walking into the House or Senate Chambers and looking through people's papers. It is just rude and has made a TERRIBLE impression for OC'ers in the Idaho Legislature.
    He had permission from the scout leader to "piggyback" with them. As far as papers on the desk are concerned. They are in the public domain and therefore are subject to inspection. The legislators all know that there are tours and the floor is open to the public. If there were anything private it should have been in a private location not on top of a desk.

    Much-a-do about nothing in my opinion.
    Last edited by carracer; 02-06-2013 at 04:12 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Armed man in Idaho Capital building.

    JK IDAHO I share your opinion! I seen the vid of the incident and am embarrassed that a fellow oc'er would act the way he did in the vid!

    http://www.ktvb.com/news/Security-vi...188787461.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimd_21 View Post
    JK IDAHO I share your opinion! I seen the vid of the incident and am embarrassed that a fellow oc'er would act the way he did in the vid!

    http://www.ktvb.com/news/Security-vi...188787461.html
    What do you not understand here? Those that work in the chambers are YOUR representatives! Every paper he went through concerned him and the people of Idaho. He could've read every paper through an information request I am sure, so what is the difference?

    He wasn't searching through private documents here people, he was searching through documents that concern his representation in the Idaho General Assembly. If we want to walk into the chambers and scan the documents that OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES have in OUR CHAMBERS then we should have every right to do so! They are OUR employees people, and this MUST be remembered! What is the difference in a CEO of a PRIVATE company being able to read business related emails sent from his employees or being able to look through papers on his employees' desks? These are OUR employees people, and WE have the RIGHT to know what they are doing and how they are spending OUR time!
    Last edited by KYGlockster; 02-06-2013 at 11:18 PM.
    "I never in my life seen a Kentuckian without a gun..."-Andrew Jackson

    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect every one who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined."-Patrick Henry; speaking of protecting the rights of an armed citizenry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KYGlockster View Post
    What do you not understand here? Those that work in the chambers are YOUR representatives! Every paper he went through concerned him and the people of Idaho. He could've read every paper through an information request I am sure, so what is the difference?

    He wasn't searching through private documents here people, he was searching through documents that concern his representation in the Idaho General Assembly. If we want to walk into the chambers and scan the documents that OUR ELECTED REPRESENTATIVES have in OUR CHAMBERS then we should have every right to do so! They are OUR employees people, and this MUST be remembered! What is the difference in a CEO of a PRIVATE company being able to read business related emails sent from his employees or being able to look through papers on his employees' desks? These are OUR employees people, and WE have the RIGHT to know what they are doing and how they are spending OUR time!
    I totally understand this. However the manner in which he did it was not in keeping with the highest standards of decorum that (I hope) are the goal of the OC community. In addition to that, not all the documents on desks there ARE public record. Some of the older legislators prefer to spend almost all their time and do all their work at their floor desk, meaning that any and all documents or items that anybody might have in their desk (person lists of contacts, for example) might have been on the desks. In addition to this, if he was genuinely concerned with what the legislators where up to and "keeping them in line", then he should have first TALKED with them, and asked what they think about whatever issue is important to him. The members of the Idaho House of Representatives will give you a straight answer to that question, even if it is one that you don't like. Whatever your opinion of this guy's actions, I can tell you all with dead certainty that his action has SERIOUSLY impacted the way that Idaho State Legislator's look at OCer's. In a BAD way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JK Idaho View Post
    I totally understand this. However the manner in which he did it was not in keeping with the highest standards of decorum that (I hope) are the goal of the OC community. In addition to that, not all the documents on desks there ARE public record. Some of the older legislators prefer to spend almost all their time and do all their work at their floor desk, meaning that any and all documents or items that anybody might have in their desk (person lists of contacts, for example) might have been on the desks. In addition to this, if he was genuinely concerned with what the legislators where up to and "keeping them in line", then he should have first TALKED with them, and asked what they think about whatever issue is important to him. The members of the Idaho House of Representatives will give you a straight answer to that question, even if it is one that you don't like. Whatever your opinion of this guy's actions, I can tell you all with dead certainty that his action has SERIOUSLY impacted the way that Idaho State Legislator's look at OCer's. In a BAD way.
    "Some of the older legislators prefer to spend almost all their time and do all their work at their floor desk, meaning that any and all documents or items that anybody might have in their desk (person lists of contacts, for example) might have been on the desks." Exactly. It is available to the public if on their desks.

    Perhaps as you are working as an Intern you might be able to get a quote from some of the legislators. Or, better yet, have them come here directly to share their views.

    Maybe a good person to start with would be Marv Hagedorn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    "Some of the older legislators prefer to spend almost all their time and do all their work at their floor desk, meaning that any and all documents or items that anybody might have in their desk (person lists of contacts, for example) might have been on the desks." Exactly. It is available to the public if on their desks.

    Perhaps as you are working as an Intern you might be able to get a quote from some of the legislators. Or, better yet, have them come here directly to share their views.

    Maybe a good person to start with would be Marv Hagedorn.
    What about their personal items in their desks? There are some who keep loaded pistols locked in their desk, or their personal computer. Should anybody just be able to got through their personal items? I agree with you, but the actions this guy took were not at all the sort of thing that puts a good name on OCer's, and that is why I am mad about it. (Plus the fact that locked doors mean it is harder for me to do my job. I know that Hagedorn is a solid 2A supporter, and I have OCed around several other Reps. without any comment.
    P.S. I do not OC at the Capitol. I do when I am there on my own time, but since (especially after this) the guards tend to hassle you, I don't do it when I am working for someone else. Plus it is hard to OC with a suit coat. Can't wait for my Maine CHP to come in though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimd_21 View Post
    JK IDAHO I share your opinion! I seen the vid of the incident and am embarrassed that a fellow oc'er would act the way he did in the vid!

    http://www.ktvb.com/news/Security-vi...188787461.html
    Agreed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JK Idaho View Post
    What about their personal items in their desks? There are some who keep loaded pistols locked in their desk, or their personal computer. Should anybody just be able to got through their personal items? I agree with you, but the actions this guy took were not at all the sort of thing that puts a good name on OCer's, and that is why I am mad about it. (Plus the fact that locked doors mean it is harder for me to do my job. I know that Hagedorn is a solid 2A supporter, and I have OCed around several other Reps. without any comment.
    P.S. I do not OC at the Capitol. I do when I am there on my own time, but since (especially after this) the guards tend to hassle you, I don't do it when I am working for someone else. Plus it is hard to OC with a suit coat. Can't wait for my Maine CHP to come in though.
    First... he didn't open drawers and go thru any desks. Second, and most important... ANYONE WHO LEAVES A LOADED HANDGUN UNATTENDED IN A PUBLIC AREA should be stripped of their position immediately. Staff included!

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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    First... he didn't open drawers and go thru any desks. Second, and most important... ANYONE WHO LEAVES A LOADED HANDGUN UNATTENDED IN A PUBLIC AREA should be stripped of their position immediately. Staff included!
    Although I haven't seen the construction of the desk or the size of the lock, I have to say if the guns are locked in the desk drawer where you were assigned to work then that's reasonable security. It's not in plain sight, it's locked, it's in an assigned personal work space and despite being public property I feel it is reasonable that our state legislators have a reasonable expectation to privacy of their work areas. If a female legislator lays her purse or a male his briefcase on the desktop it doesn't magically become state property subject to perusal from any joe who just wanders around the work area. Just because I have a public office doesn't mean you can walk in anytime and go through the contents of my desk, even the items lying on the desktop are mine or entrusted to me by the state for me to do my job.

    This "he's my representative thing" is ridiculous to an extreme in this context.

    I'm a bit disappointed that the intern doesn't OC. While I understand the hassles better than most of daily OC, when you work there and are within the law it would be a benefit to the 2A if you did OC. The security people would question you a few times but word would go around that you are not breaking any rules or regs and they would adjust and accept your carry. Tourists who question it with security would be told it is legal and not a problem. These are things that we say we believe in, not just think are okay when it is convenient. Of course, this assumes that you carry safely - secure, no retention issues, not bumping into things, not hindrance in your job tasks.

    I am also a bit confused about why you are getting a Maine CHP rather than an Idaho one. Are you a student who has residence in another state?
    Last edited by ecocks; 02-08-2013 at 04:28 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ecocks View Post
    Although I haven't seen the construction of the desk or the size of the lock, I have to say if the guns are locked in the desk drawer where you were assigned to work then that's reasonable security. It's not in plain sight, it's locked, it's in an assigned personal work space and despite being public property I feel it is reasonable that our state legislators have a reasonable expectation to privacy of their work areas. If a female legislator lays her purse or a male his briefcase on the desktop it doesn't magically become state property subject to perusal from any joe who just wanders around the work area. Just because I have a public office doesn't mean you can walk in anytime and go through the contents of my desk, even the items lying on the desktop are mine or entrusted to me by the state for me to do my job.

    This "he's my representative thing" is ridiculous to an extreme in this context.

    I'm a bit disappointed that the intern doesn't OC. While I understand the hassles better than most of daily OC, when you work there and are within the law it would be a benefit to the 2A if you did OC. The security people would question you a few times but word would go around that you are not breaking any rules or regs and they would adjust and accept your carry. Tourists who question it with security would be told it is legal and not a problem. These are things that we say we believe in, not just think are okay when it is convenient. Of course, this assumes that you carry safely - secure, no retention issues, not bumping into things, not hindrance in your job tasks.

    I am also a bit confused about why you are getting a Maine CHP rather than an Idaho one. Are you a student who has residence in another state?
    I have tried several times in the past when at the Capitol on my own time. The biggest problem is not the security guards who would probably ask once or twice and then leave me alone. It is the State Troopers who are at the building. They change around and as a result I would be frequently hassled. Since I am working on someone else's time, I don't want to spend their time defending my own legal actions to people who don't understand it. PLUS, I can't for the life of me figure out how to OC with a suit coat on comfortably. I am getting a Maine CHP because I am 18 and the state of Idaho has disenfranchised me from exercising my 2A rights between the ages of 18-21. However, I can obtain a Maine out of state CHP at 18 and use it here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    First... he didn't open drawers and go thru any desks. Second, and most important... ANYONE WHO LEAVES A LOADED HANDGUN UNATTENDED IN A PUBLIC AREA should be stripped of their position immediately. Staff included!
    Yes, he didn't go through desks, but he could have. Second, you should probably know that many of the legislators keep guns locked in desks. I personally would all say they are perfectly secure. For some reason they all seem to have an aversion to regularly carrying a gun around, but they want them handy.

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    "Yes, he didn't go through desks, but he could have."

    The fact remains that he didn't. Just like thousands of others that didn't. He could have run over someone with his car, but, he didn't. He could have gone to a theater and shot people, but, he didn't.


    "Second, you should probably know that many of the legislators keep guns locked in desks. I personally would all say they are perfectly secure. For some reason they all seem to have an aversion to regularly carrying a gun around, but they want them handy."


    Sorry, I just have a difficult time with this. If I go to a public library and put my gun in a locked drawer in an area open to the public then leave to come back the next day. Is it really secure?

    I'm ok if it was during session and they were close by or even reasonably close.

    Lets look at other video of other people. I'm willing to bet that others have done the same thing. In my opinion, had he NOT been carrying the entire issue would never have been brought up. Why should he be treated differently?

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    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    "Yes, he didn't go through desks, but he could have."

    The fact remains that he didn't. Just like thousands of others that didn't. He could have run over someone with his car, but, he didn't. He could have gone to a theater and shot people, but, he didn't.


    "Second, you should probably know that many of the legislators keep guns locked in desks. I personally would all say they are perfectly secure. For some reason they all seem to have an aversion to regularly carrying a gun around, but they want them handy."


    Sorry, I just have a difficult time with this. If I go to a public library and put my gun in a locked drawer in an area open to the public then leave to come back the next day. Is it really secure?

    I'm ok if it was during session and they were close by or even reasonably close.

    Lets look at other video of other people. I'm willing to bet that others have done the same thing. In my opinion, had he NOT been carrying the entire issue would never have been brought up. Why should he be treated differently?
    I'm not aware of any of the legislators who leave their guns their overnight. But I do know some lock guns in desk drawers while they are at the Capitol during the day. And I doubt there has been many other people so poorly mannered as to go looking through the contents of someones desk. Yes, they work for us. However that does not me that they are not entitled to live personal lives just like everyone else. Just like everyone else, they bring parts of their personal lives with them to work. And IRREGARDLESS of how much we disagree about this, the fact still remains that his actions have brought negative publicity on OCer's.

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    Blaming the Legislators for leaving papers out is just like blaming the rape victim for the rape! Extreme comparison? Absolutely, but it is still ACCURATE!
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeSparky View Post
    Blaming the Legislators for leaving papers out is just like blaming the rape victim for the rape! Extreme comparison? Absolutely, but it is still ACCURATE!
    Not accurate at all. Looking at papers in a public place is not illegal. You may have made a case for this had he removed or stolen any of the papers. Yes, he took pics. That is not stealing papers. It is not illegal to take pics in the public.



    Although we disagree on many of the points here, we will just have to agree to disagree. You all have great points and Yes, I agree we have to be on our BEST behavior as open carriers.

    As such, Hope to see you all at the OC dinner at the Fuddruckers Rest. on the 20th!

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