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Why is Open Carry so rare?

Mongoose72

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
101
Location
Virginia
I am curious why open carry in VA (Hampton Roads) is so rare. I already know the standard answers about many people not knowing that they are allowed to, or most people being sheep etc. but still it seems like 1 person in 10,000 OCs here, if that. On my previous trips to this area during the last several years I used to see 1-2 people a week open carrying. Since moving here a few months ago I haven’t seen anyone doing it besides myself. Is there a reason for this sharp decline of open carrying in the Hampton Roads area? Is the VCDL still encouraging OC? I recently talked to at least 2 members who were anti-open carry which was surprising to me as I thought that promoting OC was the group’s primary purpose? Is the VCDL now divided on this issue?
 
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TFred

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 13, 2008
Messages
7,750
Location
Most historic town in, Virginia, USA
I am curious why open carry in VA (Hampton Roads) is so rare. I already know the standard answers about many people not knowing that they are allowed to, or most people being sheep etc. but still it seems like 1 person in 10,000 OCs here, if that. On my previous trips to this area during the last several years I used to see 1-2 people a week open carrying. Since moving here a few months ago I haven’t seen anyone doing it besides myself. Is there a reason for this sharp decline of open carrying in the Hampton Roads area? Is the VCDL still encouraging OC? I recently talked to at least 2 members who were anti-open carry which was surprising to me as I thought that promoting OC was the group’s primary purpose? Is the VCDL now divided on this issue?
I don't speak for the VCDL, but in the 5 years or so that I have been hanging around the community, I've always understood that VCDL didn't make any preference for mode of carry, as long as it was legal for the particular person who was carrying.

Now you are posting on a message forum titled, Open Carry dot ORG, so it would seem to go without saying that you are likely to find more Open Carry talk here than you might among others.

There is certainly a lot of crossover between VCDL membership and OCDO membership, but I believe that has always been a matter of coincidence, due to convenience, not because of any official relationship.

JMHO.

TFred
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
Firearm ownership, and even interest in firearms are taboo. The government has done a brilliant job convincing the public of such. So even people who carry feel the effect of this campaign.
I don't know about VCDL, but WVCDL will not allow OC when they organize protests.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
Firearm ownership, and even interest in firearms are taboo. The government has done a brilliant job convincing the public of such. So even people who carry feel the effect of this campaign.
I don't know about VCDL, but WVCDL will not allow OC when they organize protests.

If VCDL had that policy they'd be down to a few NOVA Chippers and a cop or two.:lol:
 

Esanders2008

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2012
Messages
576
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
To answer OP's question: it is my opinion that a majority of people here in hampton roads are from other places, due to the strong military presence. Since carry is not allowed on bases, this precludes service members from carrying ditto for shipyard workers if I am not mistaken. For natives, like myself, I am not sure why we see less open carry. Apparently we are just missing it though. I missed out on an OC dinner that I had no idea about this past week.
 

godspel-13

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2012
Messages
35
Location
James City County, VA
In public, i almost always get these two questions: "are you a police officer" or "where did you take your class to get your permit?"

This demonstrates one clear conclusion: it is shear ignorance of our rights. It is not always ignorance in the sense of stupidity (cannot rule that out 100%), but rather just a lack of knowledge of our rights.

The plus side is that with almost everyone I have talked to, most leave the conversation feeling more educated about gun rights and feel very comfortable being around me. I try to always keep a friendly demeanor about myself, primarily because I am a genuine Christian man, but also to represent, in a positive light, all who open carry as well.

I had one guy in Walmart point at me one time with a look of terror on his face asking, "Is that legal???!!!" After I shared with him #1 Our 2nd Amendment, #2 Virginia gun laws, #3 God given rights, and #4 my ultimate motivations for why I OC, he was shaking my hand vigorously and thanking me in parting. That is not always the case, but you simply tell people the truth and stand firm to your convictions.

I have heard people that are going for their CHP say that they don't want to scare or startle people. My response is that I want my appearance to be that of a confident, law abiding citizen who is readily willing and able to defend himself and his family up to and including using deadly force, if necessary. Just last night I had to get gas at a gas station on Newport News around 11:00 PM. There were suspicious guys walking all over the place. I kept smiling, pumping gas, and made sure that they knew I would not put up with crap by keeping my right hip readily visible. All that to say that the conceal carry guy appears more vulnerable. I don't want a criminal that wants to potentially victimize me to give it a second thought.

For the record, I have only seen 4 people in my lifetime OCing, 3 on the peninsula.
 

Marco

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2007
Messages
3,905
Location
Greene County
I am curious why open carry in VA (Hampton Roads) is so rare. I already know the standard answers about many people not knowing that they are allowed to, or most people being sheep etc. but still it seems like 1 person in 10,000 OCs here, if that. On my previous trips to this area during the last several years I used to see 1-2 people a week open carrying. Since moving here a few months ago I haven’t seen anyone doing it besides myself. Is there a reason for this sharp decline of open carrying in the Hampton Roads area? Is the VCDL still encouraging OC? I recently talked to at least 2 members who were anti-open carry which was surprising to me as I thought that promoting OC was the group’s primary purpose? Is the VCDL now divided on this issue?

I have to ask, where did you get that from?
Not everyone in a organization supports everything the organization does or says.
While there is lots of overlap with OCDO posters and VCDL members the two organizations are different groups.

As far as I know the only person that speaks for VCDL is the President of the org, Phil.




VA-ALERT:
Philip Van Cleave, President of VCDL

VCDL - Open Carry Revisited when I spoke at the Rivannah Rifle and Pistol Club near Charlottesville (thanks, again, to RRPC for their hospitality!), I was asked if I could address VCDL's position on open carry vs concealed carry.

It turned out that one person who might normally have come to the meeting didn't do so because he apparently didn't like VCDL promoting open carry. I addressed the issue at the meeting, but the more I thought of it, the more I thought it should be addressed on VA-ALERT, as it had been a while since we have done so.


While VCDL's predecessor organization (NVCDL) was formed in 1994 specifically to push for concealed carry reform, VCDL does not promote one form of carry over the other. In fact, at VCDL events we don't even suggest that anyone carry at all. We have always felt that our members can decide for themselves as to whether they want to carry at an event openly or concealed, or even carry at all for that matter.
Emphasis mine


VCDL does not sponsor open carry or concealed carry events at all. We may sponsor an event celebrating a legislative victory, such as the end of the restaurant ban, but we leave the decision on whether or not to carry and the carry method up to the individual.


We WILL remind you if the law requires a certain form of carry for those that are carrying.
For example, when we held some of our picnics in State Parks, we reminded everyone that concealed carry is required by law for those carrying.
Same for open carrying in a restaurant that serves alcohol hosting an event before July 1, 2010.

There are two camps of thought on open carry:
1. Open carry is a right that helps advance our visibility, educates the public by disproving the TV & movie stereotypes that the only people who carry guns are cops or bad guys, moves our rights forward, and doesn't require government permission

2. Open carry is a right, but politically dangerous, is too much "in-your-face," takes away tactical advantages, and could end up being banned or hurting our gun rights.

VCDL, as an organization, does not subscribe to camp #2's view of open carry.
While we don't encourage or discourage open carry, we have found that it has been an avenue to showing the general public that everyday people, including friends and neighbors, are gun owners and carry a gun in a responsible manner for self-defense.

But this issue is more complicated, with each method of carry having advantages and disadvantages:

Open carry is more comfortable, especially in the hot summertime. It allows fast access to the handgun in an emergency. It can deter crime by a criminal seeing the gun and deciding to not go forward with a crime, keeping the gun owner from even having to draw the gun (lots of such cases documented, including within VCDL membership).
HOWEVER, you had better know the gun laws and know if you are in a "no carry" zone. Although quite rare, you might be asked to leave private property.
IF YOU ARE ask to leave, do NOT demand that the property be POSTED! Just politely leave.

Concealed carry can allow a handgun to be presented in a way that is a surprise to criminal who has begun an attack, which, although generally slower than open carry, can be a tactical advantage in many cases because it allows YOU to decide whether or not to present your firearm. It is very handy if you have inadvertently wandered into a location where you aren't supposed to have a gun. Since the gun is hidden, no one knows that you goofed up. It also avoids the problem of carrying on private property where open carry is prohibited.




The argument by camp #2 that makes me pull out what is left of my hair is that if someone open carries, they could cause us to lose that right.
My response to that argument is simple:
1. If you are afraid to exercise a right because it might be taken away, then you don't really have that right in the first place and
2. If you are not exercising a right and don't feel that others should either, then what do you really care if that right is taken away or not?


VCDL will strongly fight to protect both methods of carry from any attack in the General Assembly.

And the debate goes on... If you wish to comment on this alert, you can do so on VCDL's blog site:
http://blog.vcdl.org

Click here to sign up for the FREE VA Alerts.

This is from the 06/2010 VA Alert.
 

twoskinsonemanns

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Messages
2,326
Location
WV
I can't imagine I'd even bother showing up to align with a group that doesn't want me to carry the normal way I carry. Has this been a long time WVCDL policy or has this been something implemented since their young leader died in 2012?

I'm honestly not sure. I only got involved during that time. The reason given is avoiding the perceived image of being "crazy gun nuts". Any discussion of it on the FB page is quickly squashed. And folks who OC, including those without a concealed permit who must go unarmed if not OCing, and won't attend protest unarmed get a little bit of rude treatment. It was a big turn off.
 

45acpForMe

Newbie
Joined
Nov 21, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
Yorktown, Virginia, USA
Yes VCDL is an organization that fights for gun rights in VA. Sometimes we feel (Peter) that they fight harder for conceal carry than for open carry but it is usually while trying to pry open freedoms slowly rather than all at once. Constitutional Carry is desireable but baby steps sometimes are a better approach. (Not all the time though)

Why do you see few people OC-ing? Another mentioned the military and bases but the VAST majority of businesses disallow employees from carrying of any kind. So anyone you see that has a job probably won't be carrying during working hours. Many from other states stay ignorant on VA laws because they don't plan on being here long enough to make a difference.

The other side of the coin is that many places are anti so if you have to go to that place many people don't carry or CC. One of my pet pieves is schools and having to disarm whenever I go on school property to watch my daughters sports.

When you combine, employment rules, anti-locations (schools, businesses, post office, etc), a diverse geographic-originated population and the fact that some people just never grew up with guns it is not surprising that few OC.

Now many military people I talk to would love to OC and are more up to speed on the local laws etc but because of the bases being anti they are stuck.

I have run into some people that are vehemenantly CC only people and will point to California as an example of how OC forced the issue and they lost. I also have had conversations with women, disabled people, the elderly and told them about the 70% chance of not being attacked if OCing vs CCing. OC is proactive and CC is reactive. I explain that as I get older fatter and slower that 70% chance seems like a great option to me of never even having to defend myself rather than surprising the attacker that he chose an armed target while CCing.
 
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mpguy

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
689
Location
Suffolk Virginia
VCDL isn't heard of a lot in Suffolk. I have picked up 2 friends that Oc, and I hope to get Vcdls name our there more, on this side of the James.
 

peter nap

Accomplished Advocate
Joined
Oct 16, 2007
Messages
13,551
Location
Valhalla
VCDL isn't heard of a lot in Suffolk. I have picked up 2 friends that Oc, and I hope to get Vcdls name our there more, on this side of the James.

I've talked about this with Grapeshot, VCDL President and anotherBoard Member or two.

VCDL has to change it's stance on a few things to gain interest from rural areas. One of the board members I spoke with was a little shocked to find out what a small percentage of gun owners CHP holders were.

While VCDL does recognize all forms of carry, they need to get a little more involved with people that really hunt and not be bullied by Dog Hunters.
 

SouthernBoy

Regular Member
Joined
May 12, 2007
Messages
5,837
Location
Western Prince William County, Virginia, USA
Firearm ownership, and even interest in firearms are taboo. The government has done a brilliant job convincing the public of such. So even people who carry feel the effect of this campaign.
I don't know about VCDL, but WVCDL will not allow OC when they organize protests.

Where? Certainly not in Virginia... at least, not in the part in which I live.
 

Numenor

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
94
Location
Richmond, VA
Where? Certainly not in Virginia... at least, not in the part in which I live.

Hell, not with most of the people I know in the West End either. I got thanked by a neighbor the other day, who saw my pistol on my belt, for being willing to exercise our rights... same with a Henrico cop I happened to encounter (darned ticket >_<).
 
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Steeler-gal

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2011
Messages
560
Location
Fairfax County, VA
Firearm ownership, and even interest in firearms are taboo. The government has done a brilliant job convincing the public of such. So even people who carry feel the effect of this campaign.
I don't know about VCDL, but WVCDL will not allow OC when they organize protests.

It's not taboo where I am but I swear unless I am intentionally with people who I know OC I hardly ever see people OCing. I know they are out there because they post their experiences on the other thread and I constantly see places listed that I frequent. Just a timing issue I imagine.


==========================================
NRA Certified Instructor & Range Safety Officer
Teaching classes in Lorton VA & Springfield VA
PM me if you need a class, RSO or safety briefing
 

HearseGuy

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
172
Location
VA
What a fantastic article Spark! Thanks for sharing that here. I will certainly be sharing it with some folks.
 

T-Jack

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2012
Messages
22
Location
Virginia Beach, VA
I OC all the time in HR area and I see people OCing all the time. I used to be one of those "out of sight out of mind" folks for the longest time.

Then I read this:
http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-carry-discussion/7230-open-carry-argument.html

Whether one chooses to OC or not, it is personal choice. I have made mine and I choose to OC.

I believe I've seen excerpts of that article before, but never the whole thing. Excellent read, and thank you for sharing!!
 

sparkman2

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
132
Location
Hampton Roads, Virginia
I was glad to share it but I must give credit where it is due. I was introduced to this article by someone here because at the time I was on the fence about OCing around town. I read this post and it put things into perspective for me. I carry just about everywhere I go now, except for work and the places that it is unlawful to carry into the establishment. Where I work at does not allow any firearms on their property. It would be nice to have some sort of legislation that enables a citizen to carry to and from work as long as it is secured in their vehicle. I believe there was legislation passed last year that allows city workers to do just that. It is private property and I respect that, but it doesn't do me any good while I travel to and from work.
 
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