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Thread: Rabid anti-oc'ers

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    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Rabid anti-oc'ers

    Has anyone else noticed that the most rabid anti-oc'ers are the CC'ers that try to claim moral and tactical superiority for CC? I only frequent a very few gun forums, but from what I am seeing, it is the CC crowd that is now putting forth more anti-OC that any one else. There was a thread today about a restaurant that posted a No Open Carry sign. The writer was bemoaning Oklahoma'a new OC law and how much better it was when all we had was CC. I realize this is only one instance that I am relaying, but there are almost too many to mention.

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    Rabid anti-oc'ers

    I prefer deterrent over surprise

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    Quote Originally Posted by okiephlyer View Post
    Has anyone else noticed that the most rabid anti-oc'ers are the CC'ers that try to claim moral and tactical superiority for CC? I only frequent a very few gun forums, but from what I am seeing, it is the CC crowd that is now putting forth more anti-OC that any one else. There was a thread today about a restaurant that posted a No Open Carry sign. The writer was bemoaning Oklahoma'a new OC law and how much better it was when all we had was CC. I realize this is only one instance that I am relaying, but there are almost too many to mention.
    The problem is that the CCers see any of the new "No Guns" signs as a personal attack on them and it's all "our" fault. Now, they feel they are inconvenienced in finding new places to go. Well, what they should be doing is trying to change the signs at those places to at least No Open Carry so they can still be comfortable in their routine. If "we" were as complacent as they are, OC may not have passed.

    I OC when I can and CC when I can't (like at work...No OC in the building) but other than that, I have just found other places to go...I no longer go to 7-11 but go out of my way to go to OnCue. Started doing that as soon as OnCue changed their signs last year.
    I am not a lawyer and nothing I say should be accepted as legal advice

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    Yes, I've noticed that. Somebody will start a thread mentioning OC and some CC person will jump in and start bashing. Listing all the reasons they think it is a bad idea. Even when the thread wasn't _about_ whether OC was a good idea.

    This should be a case of "You drive a Ford, I prefer a Chevy, good for you" but it never seems to work out that way. IMO, the root cause seems to be that some who CC really believe that a toothless reactionary will OC in a provocative way and bring bad publicity on all of us. Leading to a downward spiral where CC is somehow further restricted or even done away with.

    Considering that we've had no problems at all with OC in OK, this seems to be the wrong reaction. This behavior is just the sort of "house divided" thing that the anti's love to see. CC people need to support OC people just like we need hunters to support people who like to shoot 3 Gun with AR's.

    I've been CC'ing for 12 years now. And I've never actually OC'ed yet. But I plan to someday. When it is the right time and place. Maybe a gun rally in OKC? But just because I don't personally do it, I don't try to talk other people out of it. Or feel compelling to start listing all the "bad things" about it. There is room for everybody.

    Gregg

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    Regular Member arc37's Avatar
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    Open Carry

    I agree some people doesn't understand this is a 2nd amendment Right. You protect your family how you want and I will protect my family how I want. Heck if you don't want to own a weapon thats alright with me just let me have my freedom to do as I see is right. I think some people would frequent a establishment that barred Chevy truck because Hey i Drive a Dodge it doesn't effect me. They don't understand that sooner or later they would try to bar all Pickups then its too late. So if they advertise with gun busters trying to effect my 2nd Amendment Rights I will just use my money elsewhere. I still CC also at times but I feel I should have the choice. I bet when it get about 100 degrees this summer OC will sound pretty good.

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    Regular Member okiebryan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulsamal View Post
    Yes, I've noticed that. Somebody will start a thread mentioning OC and some CC person will jump in and start bashing. Listing all the reasons they think it is a bad idea. Even when the thread wasn't _about_ whether OC was a good idea.

    This should be a case of "You drive a Ford, I prefer a Chevy, good for you" but it never seems to work out that way. IMO, the root cause seems to be that some who CC really believe that a toothless reactionary will OC in a provocative way and bring bad publicity on all of us. Leading to a downward spiral where CC is somehow further restricted or even done away with.

    Considering that we've had no problems at all with OC in OK, this seems to be the wrong reaction. This behavior is just the sort of "house divided" thing that the anti's love to see. CC people need to support OC people just like we need hunters to support people who like to shoot 3 Gun with AR's.

    I've been CC'ing for 12 years now. And I've never actually OC'ed yet. But I plan to someday. When it is the right time and place. Maybe a gun rally in OKC? But just because I don't personally do it, I don't try to talk other people out of it. Or feel compelling to start listing all the "bad things" about it. There is room for everybody.

    Gregg
    Hey! Welcome to OCDO! And thanks for your support. I've said this a hundred times... Carry in whatever way you feel most comfortable with. OC is not for everyone. Especially if you aren't the type who wants to answer questions posed to you by those who are curious about carrying for personal protection.

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    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulsamal View Post
    Yes, I've noticed that. Somebody will start a thread mentioning OC and some CC person will jump in and start bashing. Listing all the reasons they think it is a bad idea. Even when the thread wasn't _about_ whether OC was a good idea.

    This should be a case of "You drive a Ford, I prefer a Chevy, good for you" but it never seems to work out that way. IMO, the root cause seems to be that some who CC really believe that a toothless reactionary will OC in a provocative way and bring bad publicity on all of us. Leading to a downward spiral where CC is somehow further restricted or even done away with.

    Considering that we've had no problems at all with OC in OK, this seems to be the wrong reaction. This behavior is just the sort of "house divided" thing that the anti's love to see. CC people need to support OC people just like we need hunters to support people who like to shoot 3 Gun with AR's.

    I've been CC'ing for 12 years now. And I've never actually OC'ed yet. But I plan to someday. When it is the right time and place. Maybe a gun rally in OKC? But just because I don't personally do it, I don't try to talk other people out of it. Or feel compelling to start listing all the "bad things" about it. There is room for everybody.

    Gregg
    Gregg,
    Great first post. Welcome to the forum. There have been a couple of OC get together lunches in the Tulsa/BA area organized on here. Keep watching and something may come up closer than OKC. We even had a guy from MO at the last lunch.
    A good OC for first timers is WalMart. Their corporate policy is to comply with whatever the state says, so you should not have any issues there.
    Again, welcome to the forum.
    Al

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    Regular Member Mhostetter's Avatar
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    Rabid anti-oc'ers

    I've found that I prefer CC over OC most of the time. However, I like the fact that if I choose to OC for my own comfort it's allowed. I've open carried on several occasions and haven't had any negative issues. I agree with many that's it's a preference that must be defended by both camps regardless of personal preference.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulsamal View Post
    Yes, I've noticed that. Somebody will start a thread mentioning OC and some CC person will jump in and start bashing. Listing all the reasons they think it is a bad idea. Even when the thread wasn't _about_ whether OC was a good idea.

    This should be a case of "You drive a Ford, I prefer a Chevy, good for you" but it never seems to work out that way. IMO, the root cause seems to be that some who CC really believe that a toothless reactionary will OC in a provocative way and bring bad publicity on all of us. Leading to a downward spiral where CC is somehow further restricted or even done away with.

    Considering that we've had no problems at all with OC in OK, this seems to be the wrong reaction. This behavior is just the sort of "house divided" thing that the anti's love to see. CC people need to support OC people just like we need hunters to support people who like to shoot 3 Gun with AR's.

    I've been CC'ing for 12 years now. And I've never actually OC'ed yet. But I plan to someday. When it is the right time and place. Maybe a gun rally in OKC? But just because I don't personally do it, I don't try to talk other people out of it. Or feel compelling to start listing all the "bad things" about it. There is room for everybody.

    Gregg
    Well Greg, I am the opposite. I will only be concealed if I have to wear a coat for the weather. I have OC'd for over 42 years and find, normally, no-body cares...more so even, no-body (except bad guys looking for a victim) even notice. Since July 1970, to today, I have never been asked for my CPL, and I have never been disarmed, and I have talked to LE a total of 3 times....so, if you are hesitant. I just want to assure you, there really is no reason to be concerned. The bad guys leave you alone (which is what I want), LE generally leaves you along, unless they want to talk guns, and very few people in the general population notice, or care. (BTW: I live in WA, unlicensed OC has been legal here forever.)

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    I too have seen and been involved in the CC vs OC debates. I do both and it depends on what I'm doing and where I'm going as to which I choose.
    This same sorta debate happens with many other things. I have been a MOD on several hunting forums over the years and you see it with the bow hunters especially with compound vs long bows and vs cross bows. Every community will be divided in some degree to certain things.
    It should never be about how you choose to carry or to some degree what you choose to carry (im not so keen to the thigh rigs and a dozen mags on the belt-yes I have seen this) so long as when and what you carry is done respectfully and responsibly.
    Knew a guy in VA that was in a wheel chair. He OCd a .45 black powder pistol in a shoulder rig. Some said he was wrong for it. I say its his choice and good for him.
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    Don't overlook the baser side of human nature.

    There seems to be plenty of people who think of themselves as special because, "I have a license to carry a concealed gun." Almost as though they feel a little more important. Some might even derive some sort of personal sense of being a little cooler or more sophisticated than "sheeple".

    Suddenly along comes this crowd of average joes without licenses. We just started banging on their specialness or whatever with a hammer.

    Sad, really. You'd think support for the 2nd Amendment = support for the 2nd Amendment.

    Also, don't overlook plain old fear that people are gonna get freaked out by OC. Its a pretty prevalent assumption; and then the CCers start flinching from it.

    Just educate them. If you run into a hardcase CCer who really refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of your educational points, you can always pull out the tough questions as a last resort:

    "Are you just afraid to OC because you might actually have to face an argumentative anti-gunner soccer mom?"
    "Are you just afraid of what other people will think of you if you OC?"
    "Do you just have so much sense of self-importance invested into your CCW permit that you can't stand the idea others can carry without a license?"
    Etc, etc. Reword as needed if licenses are required for OC.
    Last edited by Citizen; 01-29-2013 at 12:24 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Don't overlook the baser side of human nature.

    There seems to be plenty of people who think of themselves as special because, "I have a license to carry a concealed gun." Almost as though they feel a little more important. Some might even derive some sort of personal sense of being a little cooler or more sophisticated than "sheeple".

    Suddenly along comes this crowd of average joes without licenses. We just started banging on their specialness or whatever with a hammer.

    Sad, really. You'd think support for the 2nd Amendment = support for the 2nd Amendment.

    Also, don't overlook plain old fear that people are gonna get freaked out by OC. Its a pretty prevalent assumption; and then the CCers start flinching from it.

    Just educate them. If you run into a hardcase CCer who really refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of your educational points, you can always pull out the tough questions as a last resort:

    "Are you just afraid to OC because you might actually have to face an argumentative anti-gunner soccer mom?"
    "Are you just afraid of what other people will think of you if you OC?"
    "Do you just have so much sense of self-importance invested into your CCW permit that you can't stand the idea others can carry without a license?"
    Etc, etc. Reword as needed if licenses are required for OC.
    You can read that attitude in any gun forum thread that's discussing whether or not to inform police that you're carrying when stopped for a traffic ticket when it's not required by law. Their smug self righteous "I'm in a special club and got off with a warning" totally misses the Harless experience where a lawful gun owner was threatened with his life.

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    Regular Member Keylock's Avatar
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    Life is short, death is long. No time to waste debating OC vs CC. Go with what you're comfortable with and ignore the ignorant. Most times I carry a .45 OC'd & .380 CC'd simultaneously.

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    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Not necessarily debating, but when I see the same wrong information coming from the CC'ers that I see coming from the anti gun crowd, something has to be said.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bullbuster View Post
    I too have seen and been involved in the CC vs OC debates. I do both and it depends on what I'm doing and where I'm going as to which I choose.
    --snipped--
    Knew a guy in VA that was in a wheel chair. He OCd a .45 black powder pistol in a shoulder rig. Some said he was wrong for it. I say its his choice and good for him.
    Yep - OC, CC, or noC just don't interfer with my/our legal right to carry in the manner of choice.

    You probably refer to HeroHog, who has since moved to Louisiana - very down to earth, very dedicated guy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FTG-05 View Post
    You can read that attitude in any gun forum thread that's discussing whether or not to inform police that you're carrying when stopped for a traffic ticket when it's not required by law. Their smug self righteous "I'm in a special club and got off with a warning" totally misses the Harless experience where a lawful gun owner was threatened with his life.
    Man I wish I woulda gotten off with just a warning due to having my permit when I got pulled over recently. The cop didn't care that I was armed (didn't even ask where it was or bat an eyelash), didn't care that I was military, and I doubt he noticed my license was expired (it's not actually expired as it has a military clause, hence attempting to notify him that I'm military). He simply did his job, gave me the ticket, and went on about his way.

    Which honestly while I might disagree with the ticket (I mean really, a 10-lane freeway with a 55mph speed limit and the thing is rarely packed is just retarded imo), is how it should be. One shouldn't get off just because of their job or a permission slip. Equal application of the law to all.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    Don't overlook the baser side of human nature.

    There seems to be plenty of people who think of themselves as special because, "I have a license to carry a concealed gun." Almost as though they feel a little more important. Some might even derive some sort of personal sense of being a little cooler or more sophisticated than "sheeple".

    Suddenly along comes this crowd of average joes without licenses. We just started banging on their specialness or whatever with a hammer.

    Sad, really. You'd think support for the 2nd Amendment = support for the 2nd Amendment.

    Also, don't overlook plain old fear that people are gonna get freaked out by OC. Its a pretty prevalent assumption; and then the CCers start flinching from it.

    Just educate them. If you run into a hardcase CCer who really refuses to acknowledge the legitimacy of your educational points, you can always pull out the tough questions as a last resort:

    "Are you just afraid to OC because you might actually have to face an argumentative anti-gunner soccer mom?"
    "Are you just afraid of what other people will think of you if you OC?"
    "Do you just have so much sense of self-importance invested into your CCW permit that you can't stand the idea others can carry without a license?"
    Etc, etc. Reword as needed if licenses are required for OC.
    Not for the first time, Citizen nailed it square on the head.

    I remember I felt this special feeling when I got my driver's license. Then I became an adult, and radical individualism followed (the two really ought to go hand-in-hand). The little bit of disgust I hold for myself for having this feeling is one of the many things which has discouraged me, over the years, from seeking licensure (i.e. permission for that which is my right). Eventually, you get to a point where you just kind of laugh at people with their cute little hall passes permission slips.

    This is why my avatar on this forum always has been, and always will be, Alfonso Bedoya. It's conveniently dual-purposed, in that it's apropos whenever the "only police should carry guns" argument is referenced, but the thread – way back in 2007 – which inspired the avatar was about CC badges for OC. I still chuckle to myself every time I login.

    Second time today I've used the word irreverent, but my avatar is my irreverent response to every CC-only fool on the planet: always there, implicitly mocking them.
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-25-2013 at 12:58 PM.

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    Regular Member khelben762's Avatar
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    oc/cc a choice

    I see constant bickering between the camps on open versus concealed carry in public. One side says that when you open carry you become the first target or that someone is going to take your firearm away from you and use it on you and others. It is all a pretty big “what if”.
    Well I have several points to be made on these subjects and others so if you are the type to be all butt hurt over human nature and personal observations I recommend you stop reading and go back to your dream world.

    On open carry vs. concealed carry, it comes down to a personal choice and what you feel works best for you. However it is folly to think that what works best for one individual is best for all.
    1. Open carry scares the public. If the public is uneducated about any given item they will fear it, human nature says that the unknown is to be feared. Education is the key to dispelling the myths created by fear mongers and those that would seek to control the general population.
    2. Concealed carry gives you the element of surprise. Yes. It will give you the element of surprise in a situation; however it does nothing as a deterrent to the criminal act that may be taking place.
    3. Open carry can be a deterrent to the criminal act. Yes, it can as for the most part criminals are cowardly and will seek easier targets for their crimes. Even they can complete a risk vs. reward assessment. Not knowing if someone may be armed is lower on the risk scale than knowing it to be a fact.
    4. If you open carry someone might take your gun from you. If you are going to carry at all you need to use what is called “situational awareness”. Means being aware of your surroundings at all times. To carry a firearm is not something to be done for status or “cool” factor.

    There is no right or wrong with the decision to open or conceal carry your firearm. It is my personal belief that there should in fact be some of both everywhere. I say this because yes the open carry is seen and will weigh the thought process of the criminal to take the risk targeting the open carrier first, thus being taken out by the concealed carrier. Or the criminal will choose to seek a weaker or less defended target someplace else.
    May years ago I wrote the people of this country a check for up to and including my life. This was my time in the U.S.Army. The oath I swore then I still hold true and stand by even to this day. Yes I conceal carry most of the time, but also open carry when the option is available to me.
    If my concealed firearm saves the day in a dynamic critical incident then I’m proud to have served my people and country, if I am the first target of some criminal and a fellow citizen saves that day, I have done my duty and fulfilled my oath to the people of this country and I hold no regrets for doing so.
    These are the choices that each person that chooses to exercise their right to carry a firearm for defense must make in their own hearts and minds. For anyone to make that decision for another person is morally wrong and in my opinion downright criminal itself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by khelben762 View Post
    I see constant bickering between the camps on open versus concealed carry in public. One side says that when you open carry you become the first target or that someone is going to take your firearm away from you and use it on you and others. It is all a pretty big “what if”.
    Well I have several points to be made on these subjects and others so if you are the type to be all butt hurt over human nature and personal observations I recommend you stop reading and go back to your dream world.
    Your point? You list out four things, but leave them as only half statements.

    On open carry vs. concealed carry, it comes down to a personal choice and what you feel works best for you. However it is folly to think that what works best for one individual is best for all.
    Agreed and pretty much the only thing that doesn't really need to be expounded upon.

    1. Open carry scares the public. If the public is uneducated about any given item they will fear it, human nature says that the unknown is to be feared. Education is the key to dispelling the myths created by fear mongers and those that would seek to control the general population.
    And how is one to educate the public without getting out there and OCing? If you don't OC because the public isn't educated then the public isn't really going to get educated about it not being a big deal, and the wheels on the bus go round-n-round...

    2. Concealed carry gives you the element of surprise. Yes. It will give you the element of surprise in a situation; however it does nothing as a deterrent to the criminal act that may be taking place.
    And just who are you trying to surprise? Surprising or ambushing someone is an offensive action, not defensive. The better arguement for concealing is to not be targeted for crime because of the gun, but I'll get to that further down.

    3. Open carry can be a deterrent to the criminal act. Yes, it can as for the most part criminals are cowardly and will seek easier targets for their crimes. Even they can complete a risk vs. reward assessment. Not knowing if someone may be armed is lower on the risk scale than knowing it to be a fact.
    Agreed. There's even research out there backing this up.

    4. If you open carry someone might take your gun from you. If you are going to carry at all you need to use what is called “situational awareness”. Means being aware of your surroundings at all times. To carry a firearm is not something to be done for status or “cool” factor.
    One shouldn't CC for the status or "cool" factor either, this isn't limited to OCing. And while yes this is something one should understand as a "possibility" it is FAR from a probability for a citizen not acting in an LEO/security position. Just as how you said that criminals can do a risk vs reward assessment, carriers need to do the same (and as such they need to realize that this "gun grab" chance is far FAR lower than many people make it out to be). Instead I see too many people having an irrational fear of the "gun grab" even when the data shows it to be a non-issue.

    There is no right or wrong with the decision to open or conceal carry your firearm. It is my personal belief that there should in fact be some of both everywhere. I say this because yes the open carry is seen and will weigh the thought process of the criminal to take the risk targeting the open carrier first, thus being taken out by the concealed carrier. Or the criminal will choose to seek a weaker or less defended target someplace else.
    While this is an interesting belief, do you have anything to back up that a regular citizen will be targeted first for a crime? I only know of one instance of an OCer being targeted because of his gun. Though if the criminal were to see multiple guns instead of only one, why would he continue upon the crime when he knows he can't get all the OCers? Well, unless he is insane, at which point all of this is moot as he is highly likely to shoot regardless of if people are armed or not.

    May years ago I wrote the people of this country a check for up to and including my life. This was my time in the U.S.Army. The oath I swore then I still hold true and stand by even to this day. Yes I conceal carry most of the time, but also open carry when the option is available to me.
    If my concealed firearm saves the day in a dynamic critical incident then I’m proud to have served my people and country, if I am the first target of some criminal and a fellow citizen saves that day, I have done my duty and fulfilled my oath to the people of this country and I hold no regrets for doing so.
    In such an incident one's manner of carry shouldn't matter. Unless one is CCing in hopes that a crime might "one day" happen by them because the BG didn't know they were armed, and thus the CCer was able to pull his weapon to put the BG down. Personally I too have taken an oath, but I feel that OCing better serves this purpose by helping me get the sheep to understand that the Second Amendment isn't something to be scared of while also helping better protect those around me by helping to deter those around that would otherwise do harm.

    These are the choices that each person that chooses to exercise their right to carry a firearm for defense must make in their own hearts and minds. For anyone to make that decision for another person is morally wrong and in my opinion downright criminal itself.
    I agree that it is to each person to make the choice, it's just that so many push CC as being "better" that I have an issue with. Even your post comes across as if CC is better, but then you don't say anything to help back up the statements you make. Outside of certain circumstances I would say that OC is better, but at least we both agree that it should be an individual's choice.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aknazer View Post
    I agree that it is to each person to make the choice, it's just that so many push CC as being "better" that I have an issue with. Even your post comes across as if CC is better, but then you don't say anything to help back up the statements you make. Outside of certain circumstances I would say that OC is better, but at least we both agree that it should be an individual's choice.
    His post comes across as someone who doesn't acutally OC. He makes a number of assertions no regular OCer would agree with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    ...This is why my avatar on this forum always has been, and always will be, Alfonso Bedoya. It's conveniently dual-purposed, in that it's apropos whenever the "only police should carry guns" argument is referenced, but the thread – way back in 2007 – which inspired the avatar was about CC badges for OC. I still chuckle to myself every time I login.

    ...
    You know, before OC became legal and I got to do it I was concerned about being hassled by the police for doing it. I was even prepared to get a badge for my permit should it become an issue. Though I wanted a badge that was an obvious mockery when it was looked at (like the "mall ninja" badge that even has like a mini ninja-star on the center of it) as my way of protesting being hassled for OCing. Thankfully I haven't been hassled for OCing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    His post comes across as someone who doesn't acutally OC. He makes a number of assertions no regular OCer would agree with.
    To me he comes across as someone who might OC on occasion but doesn't do with with any regularity. It actually reminds me of the whole Pat Rogers incident where he claims to OC "on occasion" but then make statements without backing it up. But unlike the Pat Rogers incident, he doesn't come across as pompous "I have more training so I know better and don't have to justify anything" like the other did.

  23. #23
    Regular Member okiephlyer's Avatar
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    Although my original post didn't expound far enough, one of the points I should have tried to include was that the holier than thou CC crowd (not all CC'ers, just the holier than thou crowd) continually try to promote their idea of carry as the only true way. What I have seen is the OC crowd is a lot more accepting of CC'ers. The OC crowd will say, carry whichever way you are comfortable with, but allow me to carry the way I am comfortable with. And if you want to speak against OC, then use verifiable facts, not suppositions created to support a particular position.
    As to OC scaring the general population, my experience doesn't hold true to that. Most of the population never notices, and those that do are curious or supportive.

    kelhben762, welcome to the forum and I hope you will stay engaged in the discussion.

    And I, too, have written that check to my country.
    Last edited by okiephlyer; 03-04-2013 at 09:10 PM.

  24. #24
    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Sorry, OC does not scare the public...do you see the mothers run and hide their children when a cop shows up?

  25. #25
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    ...do you see the mothers run and hide their children when a cop shows up?
    Wouldn't be an unreasonable reaction.

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