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Rabid anti-oc'ers

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
...This is why my avatar on this forum always has been, and always will be, Alfonso Bedoya. It's conveniently dual-purposed, in that it's apropos whenever the "only police should carry guns" argument is referenced, but the thread – way back in 2007 – which inspired the avatar was about CC badges for OC. I still chuckle to myself every time I login. :lol:

...

You know, before OC became legal and I got to do it I was concerned about being hassled by the police for doing it. I was even prepared to get a badge for my permit should it become an issue. Though I wanted a badge that was an obvious mockery when it was looked at (like the "mall ninja" badge that even has like a mini ninja-star on the center of it) as my way of protesting being hassled for OCing. Thankfully I haven't been hassled for OCing.
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
His post comes across as someone who doesn't acutally OC. He makes a number of assertions no regular OCer would agree with.

To me he comes across as someone who might OC on occasion but doesn't do with with any regularity. It actually reminds me of the whole Pat Rogers incident where he claims to OC "on occasion" but then make statements without backing it up. But unlike the Pat Rogers incident, he doesn't come across as pompous "I have more training so I know better and don't have to justify anything" like the other did.
 

okiephlyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
423
Location
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Although my original post didn't expound far enough, one of the points I should have tried to include was that the holier than thou CC crowd (not all CC'ers, just the holier than thou crowd) continually try to promote their idea of carry as the only true way. What I have seen is the OC crowd is a lot more accepting of CC'ers. The OC crowd will say, carry whichever way you are comfortable with, but allow me to carry the way I am comfortable with. And if you want to speak against OC, then use verifiable facts, not suppositions created to support a particular position.
As to OC scaring the general population, my experience doesn't hold true to that. Most of the population never notices, and those that do are curious or supportive.

kelhben762, welcome to the forum and I hope you will stay engaged in the discussion.

And I, too, have written that check to my country.
 
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khelben762

New member
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Messages
6
Location
norman
"And how is one to educate the public without getting out there and OCing? If you don't OC because the public isn't educated then the public isn't really going to get educated about it not being a big deal, and the wheels on the bus go round-n-round..."


ok to clarify for those that need it, these are the things i see most in the oc/cc argument threads. should i oc more? sure, and if i were able to i would.

"While this is an interesting belief, do you have anything to back up that a regular citizen will be targeted first for a crime? I only know of one instance of an OCer being targeted because of his gun. Though if the criminal were to see multiple guns instead of only one, why would he continue upon the crime when he knows he can't get all the OCers? Well, unless he is insane, at which point all of this is moot as he is highly likely to shoot regardless of if people are armed or not."

as i said it is my personal belief no further data needed as im not claiming a hard fact here.

" One shouldn't CC for the status or "cool" factor either, this isn't limited to OCing. And while yes this is something one should understand as a "possibility" it is FAR from a probability for a citizen not acting in an LEO/security position. Just as how you said that criminals can do a risk vs reward assessment, carriers need to do the same (and as such they need to realize that this "gun grab" chance is far FAR lower than many people make it out to be). Instead I see too many people having an irrational fear of the "gun grab" even when the data shows it to be a non-issue."

this is my point and goes either way.

"His post comes across as someone who can't always OC. He makes a number of assertions no regular OCer would agree with."

fixed that one.

"Your point? You list out four things, but leave them as only half statements."

take a breath and read again, you wil see that i wrote the common claim followed by my opinion not half statements.

"In such an incident one's manner of carry shouldn't matter. Unless one is CCing in hopes that a crime might "one day" happen by them because the BG didn't know they were armed, and thus the CCer was able to pull his weapon to put the BG down. Personally I too have taken an oath, but I feel that OCing better serves this purpose by helping me get the sheep to understand that the Second Amendment isn't something to be scared of while also helping better protect those around me by helping to deter those around that would otherwise do harm."

this is my point / individual choice
 

Aknazer

Regular Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
1,760
Location
California
take a breath and read again, you wil see that i wrote the common claim followed by my opinion not half statements.

Let's take a look again at your original assertment.

...Well I have several points to be made on these subjects and others so if you are the type to be all butt hurt over human nature and personal observations I recommend you stop reading and go back to your dream world...

This is before any of your points. You don't say "this is my opinion" you say that these are points on the subject to be made. If they are actual points then you need to back them up, or else you need to not try and present them as if they are facts. To further show how you presented your "opinions" as facts one simply needs to look at the second part of your statement and saying how if it bothers one then they need to "...stop reading and go back to your [their] dream world..." This ending statement again helps to give the impression that you are pushing these things as irrefutable facts that can't be argued with or gone against. So what is it, are they facts or opinions? If they're facts then we're working to disprove such "facts" and asking that you back up such claims. If their simply you're opinion that you're trying to get people to believe are "facts" then we're working to show how such opinions are based on false "facts" and improper views.

If I seem hostile, it is no more hostile than you came across in the original post with how people who disagree with you are simply "butt hurt" and needing to return to their "dream world" as you put it.
 

okiephlyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
423
Location
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
"as i said it is my personal belief no further data needed as im not claiming a hard fact here."

You may have a personal belief, but a mountain of legitimate data says your personal belief is in error. You may have a personal belief that the world is flat, but the facts say otherwise. Just using this to illustrate a point, not that you may or may not think the world is flat.



"this is my point / individual choice"

And the point of this thread is that the CC'ers only want people to carry their way, while the OC'ers are content to let each person decide how they will carry. I would rather spend time fighting the anti gun crowd than the CC crowd.
 

MKEgal

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2010
Messages
4,383
Location
in front of my computer, WI
Education is the key to dispelling the myths created by fear mongers
I think that's the most important statement.
It's why so many of us explain (over and over and over and...) that the stereotypes and fears about OC are false.

khelben762 said:
1. Open carry scares the public.
:banghead: Except that it doesn't.
Please point out where in these videos anyone looks or acts scared? Some people even smile at me.
I took all of these with a hidden camera, with me OC a full-size pistol while doing errands.
http://youtu.be/zPeZS2_RA_Q
http://youtu.be/ZMXBaDKUdGg
http://youtu.be/gDj0TnKx0UQ
http://youtu.be/mKxYSczw_94

2. Concealed carry gives you the element of surprise... however it does nothing as a deterrent (#3)
I'm all for deterrance. Much better than trying to get the drop on an attacker.

4. If you open carry someone might take your gun from you.
:banghead:
Out of the probably millions of people-days (certainly hundreds of thousands) of people OCing, I've read about the street criminal gun grab I think 4 times. Maybe 5.
One of them was an armed robbery, not too far from where I live.
Much more common that LEO illegally take a pistol from an armed citizen.
 

khelben762

New member
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Messages
6
Location
norman
ok here again for you

"ok to clarify for those that need it, these are the things i see most in the oc/cc argument threads."



"And the point of this thread is that the CC'ers only want people to carry their way, while the OC'ers are content to let each person decide how they will carry. I would rather spend time fighting the anti gun crowd than the CC crowd.

not from what im seeing here
 
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okiephlyer

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2008
Messages
423
Location
Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
You joined this discussion putting forth 4 points, 3 of which were not valid. This is the type of activity we see a lot from the CC crowd, so it would be reasonable to expect to be challenged. This is also an "Open Carry" forum, so expect OC to be promoted here. Looking back over the entire thread, nowhere did I see anyone saying that OC is the only way to carry. Yes, we all think it is the best way, but nowhere do we say it is the only way.
 

khelben762

New member
Joined
Nov 24, 2011
Messages
6
Location
norman
"1. Open carry scares the public. If the public is uneducated about any given item they will fear it, human nature says that the unknown is to be feared. Education is the key to dispelling the myths created by fear mongers and those that would seek to control the general population.

2. Concealed carry gives you the element of surprise. Yes. It will give you the element of surprise in a situation; however it does nothing as a deterrent to the criminal act that may be taking place.

3. Open carry can be a deterrent to the criminal act. Yes, it can as for the most part criminals are cowardly and will seek easier targets for their crimes. Even they can complete a risk vs. reward assessment. Not knowing if someone may be armed is lower on the risk scale than knowing it to be a fact.

4. If you open carry someone might take your gun from you. If you are going to carry at all you need to use what is called “situational awareness”. Means being aware of your surroundings at all times. To carry a firearm is not something to be done for status or “cool” factor. "


the common saying


my response

done here i thinks.
 
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rushcreek2

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 27, 2010
Messages
909
Location
Colorado Springs. CO
Speaking purely academically the right to keep and bear arms enumerated in Amendment Two of the U.S. Constitution makes ABSOLUTELY no distinction between OC vs CC. "To KEEP" is to possess. "To BEAR" is to employ - but again makes no distinction between OC vs CC.

Colorado's Constitution excepts the practice of carrying concealed arms from that State's provision for protection of the right to keep & bear arms.

Texas' Constitution , and its statutes make no distinction between OC vs CC other than to presently require CCW's to conceal.

There is a history of concern over the practice of carrying concealed weapons IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE that goes back to the colonial era.

THE ISSUE however has ALWAYS been the question of LAWFUL conduct vs CRIMINAL conduct.

There are going to be circumstances when I prefer to CONCEAL. There will be circumstances when I decide to DISPLAY.
As long as my conduct is LAWFUL - I am guilty of no crime. That my LAWFUL conduct may be disturbing to someone's tranquility standard is not a question of either law, or propriety.
 
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