NVFAC - who is the genious behind this last decision?

Vegassteve said:

I guess I just dont get it according to the MAN. I didnt know the desert had operating hours.



QUOTE" You just don't get that having MORE shooters makes us more influencial. 47% of Clark County owns guns and had no public place to shoot. The desert was closed. A hour wait at the public range shows how many people use it. The county management didn't want to have the range, the PUBLIC demanded it. If you had your way there would be no public range and the county would be happy not having a range to deal with. We need more shooters, more shooters means more people concerned about their rights, more people concerned means more pressure to change the laws, more pressure means the laws will get changed. Pretty simple to me.

Anyways, for the rest of the members, we are having our first annual meeting at the Clark County Shooting Complex. We have a very critical legislative year, so please stay connected, sharpen your pencils (power up your keyboards) and let's make a difference with out gun laws this year!"

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Unfortunately Don does not understand that it is not the number of people who shoot firearms that really count. It is the number of them who raise their voice. NVFAC can't speak for all firearms owners, only those who are members. Things like supporting Clark County by utilizing its shooting park keeps people from joining. Further, money talks, loudly. If the park is failing, and the county has to continually dump millions into it, people, not just shooters, are going to call them on the carpet for it.

People own firearms for many reasons and I'm guessing that only a small percentage even shoot on any kind of a regular basis. Of those that do, only a very small percentage would utilize that range even without issues being involved. The need for the NVFAC to support Clark County in order to grow really is a non-issue. We don't need them, they need us.

For those of you up in the big end who are wondering why this issue would be important to you, consider this. If we don’t find a way to stand together, the question of whether we can repeal the Clark County registration is moot. We are going to be damn lucky if we can prevent the state from imposing it on every other part of Nevada.

TBG

My reply to Don's response above:

Don,

I apologize for not understanding, Is it possible that you explained to someone else?

Here are some questions I have, I do not expect you you answer to me, but as the President of NVFAC, you do owe it the gun owners of this state, to at least think very hard and truthfully about the answers to these.

How many shooters must be recruited in your estimation, to eliminate the CCGR (Clark County Gun Registry?)

Is there a Covert plan to take down CCGR by supporting financially the very entity doing the registering? If so can I get in on the planning?

Are there other ways to reach shooters, without supporting the single entity in the State who registers lawfully owned handguns, and the citizens who own them?

What do I say to recruit my friend Michael who was taken to jail for a lawfully registered handgun, to get him to support CCSC and CCGR.

What benefit does the NVFAC obtain, by driving business to the draconian CCSC, and away from "We the People" inspired facility's?

How does the success of the CCSC benefit the liberty of gun owners?

How is the CCSC not a socialist entity?

Don I have watched in Horror the NVFAC make choice after choice, that conflicts with the liberty minded gun owner. I do not see how the NVFAC has been a net positive for gun owners. I witness a "self claimed" gun rights organization partners with an entity who registers firearms. NVFAC has a VP Bob Irwin misinforming gun owners through his instructors at The Gun Store. Several of us have brought these issues up to him on many occasions and he has never fixed them. VP Irwin is no ambassador himself, with his careless statements made. I know the media mixes words. I was taken out of context Friday evening by channel 8, But over and over again?

Don, as a gun owner of this State I ask you to reevaluate your self imposed position, and take NVFAC in the direction of safety,training, and sports related activity's and away from Inalienable rights, until such a time the NVFAC can do justice to the very rights I am prepared to give my life for.

There was a time when you could just start a rights Org. about anything you wanted. Those days are over Don. people are not as dis concerned as they were years back.

If you would like to learn more about rights and how they affect our daily lives, I would be happy to help.

Bob Irwin Quote of the week: "Gun Store owner Bob Irwin said he supports background checks for all gun sales, provided they don't come with a cost. He rejected the idea that private sales somehow promote violence."

Source:http://www.8newsnow.com/story/21078005/i-team-some-private-gun-sellers-arming-criminals


In Liberty,

Don's Response:

David,



This response no way attempts to criticize nor down play your position on this subject. The registration program is a blatant affront to every good citizen and needs to be eliminated as soon as possible.



This response is about strategy to accomplish that. There is nothing I can say that will change your position or opinion. So I would just like to make a couple of points about the gun registration program (blue card) and the use of Clark County Shooting Complex.



The registration program has been in place since 1948. Obviously a boycott of the county range has had no impact on the county. It is ok to boycott things, one would hope it would force change, and one must follow one’s conscience.



Let’s just consider the boycott as a mechanism to make change. The range wasn’t built with county general funds, it is not operated with county general funds. It is an enterprise fund and the monies necessary to build it came from federal grants which were going to be expended in Clark County for other purposes anyways. Every bullet you buy and every firearm you buy has an 11% federal tax (Pittman Robertson Fund) that goes to the states to provide hunting and shooting opportunities. Some of these funds were used for the shooting range. If our tax monies are used to buy and operate public recreational facilities, we should get some of our money back. Public ranges directly return the monies back to the people who pay the PR tax. The county range does not enforce nor check the blue cards. No police officers are even assigned to the range and even the parks police do not patrol it. Open carry is not banned in the shooting park. As a matter of fact, according to shooting park regulations, all other park regulations are void at the shooting park.



The county closed the desert to shooting. The private gun clubs are mostly limited in the amount of shooting services they can provide, and commercial shooting ranges are too expensive for the average citizen. One way to eliminate guns is to take away the opportunity to use them, demand then drops and fewer people shoot. With public ranges, more people shoot. The more people shoot, the more people will buy handguns. There are then more people that will be motivated to terminate the registration program. The government answers to money and public outrage. Outrage is determined by volume of letters, emails and phone calls.



The county management didn’t want a shooting range, and still doesn’t. The shooters “we the people” demanded it and the commission went along with it. Some of our local “gun community” businessmen (you know who they are) lobbied to stop the project several times. It was citizen demanded. The county would be more than happy to close the range. When that happens, the range reverts to the federal government and they will sell it for homes and the county and city will get MORE tax revenue from the developers.



So if your boycott were successful, the county range would close and there would be houses there. There would still be a blue card program as the Sheriff’s monies do not come from the funds used to build and operate the range.



The county and city assets that we all use are everywhere. You use county, NLV, Henderson, and LV roads to drive on all the time, yet these are all provided by government agencies that support the blue card, do you boycott the roads? I had occasion to see you at the Cashman Center during a gun show. That is a LV government agency funded and operated facility-that supports handgun registration by law, yet you don’t boycott that. If one of your family members were hurt or your house was on fire would you deny fire or EMS services for your family or property? Yet they are also government services from the government agency you are boycotting. It appears then that your boycott is just reserved for the only place where we may have a hope of expanding our power base. With the help of a lot of people we have gathered over 2,000 signatures to end the registration program. These will be presented at the right time and place to have a major impact on the program. Hopefully there will be a large number of people to show support for elimination of the program.



A case in point. In 2007 we had a state hearing on the revision of the pre-emption law. We had people in place in Carson City to eliminate the program, the state rifle and pistol association wouldn’t take a stand. ONLY 10 PEOPLE SHOWED UP the public hearing to protest the blue card. TEN is all. After we started NVFAC, several months ago, Horne proposed an assault weapon ban. Over 100 people showed up to testify, and it was dropped from consideration. So yes we (the shooting community) is recruiting more shooters and they are making a difference. As we continue to get more shooters, more things positive will happen. I was involved with the AZ State Association and saw this happen in the Phoenix area when the Ben Avery Shooting Facility went from 47,000 annual shooters to 198,000 annual shooters. AZ has one of the best gun climates in the western states.



As far as your other comments. They are being reviewed and carefully considered for correction. That is all I will say at this time.



We both have the same goal, but different strategies to achieve them. We need numbers large numbers of people willing to step forward and write letters and testify, LOTS of them.



Hope this explanation clearly articulates the strategy on this issue.



Make plans fit the circumstances, not the circumstances fit the plan.

General George Patton





Best wishes,

This was not snippy and while I contest some small item's This is what i have been looking for.

Don's Response said:

...The county closed the desert to shooting. ...

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Is this accurate?

MAC702 said:

Is this accurate?

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Maybe some county owned land? I know the blm has closures but those are close to town. Of course if someone wants to defend the shooting park they would say anything I guess.

MAC702 said:

Is this accurate?

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I'm somewhat removed from the intricacies of Clark County, but I think its accurate to say the county/cities closed lands they have control over (less some existing shooting ranges).

Remaining lands in Clark County are controlled by the Feds.

See http://gisgate.co.clark.nv.us/gisplot_pdfs/cp/illegalfirearms.pdf

Make sense?

varminter22 said:

I'm somewhat removed from the intricacies of Clark County, but I think its accurate to say the county/cities closed lands they have control over (less some existing shooting ranges).

Remaining lands in Clark County are controlled by the Feds.

See http://gisgate.co.clark.nv.us/gisplot_pdfs/cp/illegalfirearms.pdf

Make sense?

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As I look at the map, there are plenty of areas in the desert to shoot. Only those urbanized areas are off limits as would be expected. There are places within a few miles of my house here in Henderson that are open.

TBG

Some of the "suspect conversation is what Mac picked up on, also the county not paying for anything. I am not trying to nit pick though... Don said it best when he said that Government answers to money and citizen outrage.... So do rights Org's! anyone got money?

I get the point about the shooting range and the pointy end. BUT.


1) It does provide for shooting activities, and showing support for that, is a valid cause in line with the 2A.

2) The NVFAC is a 2A org, show support, and continue to express displeasure about blue card.



Boycotting the NVFAC because of the blue card is counter-productive. I think this should be a case of 'pick your battles.' I earnestly ask of you all to 'pick one that is actually against someone who is against the 2A.




Up in Churchill County, pop ~24,000, our 'gun rights' group hovers between 700-800 members, or a 3.33%. Help give the NVFAC those numbers from clark county, and THEN there is a force that would help get the legislature to sit and take notice. And, given the current drift of legislative efforts, it is sorely needed this year more than just about any other. PLEASE consider placing this one off to the side for the greater good. I really foresee the possibility that some steamrolling efforts (aka NY) may be attempted this year.


NOTE: Given that a large portion of our membership is more properly placed in Fallon than in the county, the % is actually closer to 10. Think of it, if you could have the NVFAC with 10% of the population of Vegas.

Those same arguments could be directed AT the coalition. They need the members, but are still making the compromises that are keeping several of us from wanting to help them. Maybe, for "the greater good" of course, they should start getting rid of asshat politicians like Bob Irwin, and stop supporting the draconian state law-violating Clark County government.

MAC702 said:

Those same arguments could be directed AT the coalition. They need the members, but are still making the compromises that are keeping several of us from wanting to help them. Maybe, for "the greater good" of course, they should start getting rid of asshat politicians like Bob Irwin, and stop supporting the draconian state law-violating Clark County government.

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Then get in with enough others to change the board.........


Such change is from within. And, the numbers should come because what they are working for in the legislature matches what YOU want in the legislature. I personally feel you are the ones taking a divisive stand, in a time when we really need to be together.


THEY took the time to create the group. Why didn't some of you......


To me, it is a clear case of 'pick your battles.' And, at this point, I personally think you are picking the wrong one.

You imply I do nothing helpful because I am not yet part of your group.

In some ways my arguments have more power because I am not part of a group that helps me form them.

I'm not saying we shouldn't join NVFAC. But NVFAC should also recognize why some of us haven't bothered.

Hey, don't get me wrong, they are far more powerful with Bob Irwin than they are with me. But that's also a little scary.

Did NVFAC organize the meeting outside Joe Heck's office in Las Vegas today? Or was it a legitimate "group" of pro-freedom, politically active, firearms owners who give a damn, and are perfectly capable of organizing themselves at a moment's notice to take care of business? Damn, I hope "Tread" remembers to take the minutes of the meeting so it can be filed legally. And we should probably hire a staff to manage our group, too. Maybe even a politician because people will just ignore his asshat remarks in public anyway, but it will overall be good for our "group."

MAC702 said:

You imply I do nothing helpful because I am not yet part of your group.

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Nope, I state that by working to keep the numbers of the group down, you are working against all firearms owners in the state.


The NVFAC is our best shot at having effective representation in the legislative session, in a year when it is desperately needed. Since they are the ones who took the initiative, and the rest of you didn't, at least support the group that took the initiative, so that your goals are part of their goals.


This isn't a good year to continue keeping separated, your personal feelings about the shooting park notwithstanding. As I mentioned, this is a case of 'pick your battles.' And, by choosing to fight the shooting park by boycotting a pro-2a group, I do think you are picking the wrong battle.


It isn't Bob Irwin that will give the NVFAC 'power.' It is numbers of members that will give it power.

I'm not boycotting it. I'm choosing not to join yet. I think there is a significant difference.

MAC702 said:

I'm not boycotting it. I'm choosing not to join yet. I think there is a significant difference.

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Nail on the head! +1

These NVFAC guys don't seem to understand the idea that they have to justify their club to US, not the other way around.

You haven't been seeing what they are working to do in the legislative session?

Unfortunately, whatever legislation they DO get presented will stand a snowball's chance in hell this session. What they REALLY need, is membership numbers to lend weight to attempt to keep gun control legislation to a minimum. If you want the best chance possible to stop bad legislation, that should be enough of a 'sell' for any pro-gun nevadan right there. THAT is what is needed this year.

Join in and help add numbers, that is what is really needed. Badly.

wrightme said:

You haven't been seeing what they are working to do in the legislative session?

Unfortunately, whatever legislation they DO get presented will stand a snowball's chance in hell this session. What they REALLY need, is membership numbers to lend weight to attempt to keep gun control legislation to a minimum. If you want the best chance possible to stop bad legislation, that should be enough of a 'sell' for any pro-gun nevadan right there. THAT is what is needed this year.

Join in and help add numbers, that is what is really needed. Badly.

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That's going to be tough, since they don't listen or want current member input. They have had two years worth of chances. Many of us have contacted them about issues and were ignored on all of them.

Vegassteve said:

That's going to be tough, since they don't listen or want current member input. They have had two years worth of chances. Many of us have contacted them about issues and were ignored on all of them.

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Um, they are less than 1.5 years since their start.

Let's give them the benefit of the doubt and the truncation. They've been ignoring our concerns for a year. How's that?