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Thread: Hb 1588

  1. #1
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Hb 1588

    More "feel good" stuff with no teeth. If you are a gunsmith you fall into the dealer coulmn, if you have a C&R / CPL your SOL.

    Now you will have to pay a fee to exercise your right as a private buyer. ??????

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=1588

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  2. #2
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    I wonder if an individual who donates a firearm to someone, and accepts a cash donation in return, is required to do anything under 1588/.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  3. #3
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Hb 1588

    This would effectively enhance the non existent registration in the state since we know the DOL keeps a record of every transaction.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

  4. #4
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    I wonder if an individual who donates a firearm to someone, and accepts a cash donation in return, is required to do anything under 1588/.
    I could just see it...a future Seattle gun buy-back failing because of the need to run a background check every time they give out an Amazon gift card...

  5. #5
    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    More "feel good" stuff with no teeth. If you are a gunsmith you fall into the dealer coulmn, if you have a C&R / CPL your SOL.

    Now you will have to pay a fee to exercise your right as a private buyer. ??????

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/summary.aspx?bill=1588

    ~Whitney
    How does this proposed law affect Gunsmiths? They already are regulated the same under Federal Law.

    A CPL has never been a substitute for a background check, possession of one just provides a waiver of he mandatory waiting period. CPL holders still have to fill out the forms and wait for the NICS check.

    What I see this law doing is either eliminating private sellers from Gun Shows, making them a get together of Licensed Dealers and Jerkey sales people, or the show promoters will have to make provisions to have Law Enforcement man a booth to provide the necessary checks. Kind of like the "waiting room" area at Cabela's.

    Like it or not, I think this law has a pretty good chance of being enacted.
    "If I shoot all the ammo I am carrying I either won't need anymore or more won't help"

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  6. #6
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    I could just see it...a future Seattle gun buy-back failing because of the need to run a background check every time they give out an Amazon gift card...
    They are part of the State, they would be exempt from it.--gun buybacks ought to be a no questions asked.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  7. #7
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    FFL 01 exemptions

    Quote Originally Posted by amlevin View Post
    How does this proposed law affect Gunsmiths? They already are regulated the same under Federal Law.

    A CPL has never been a substitute for a background check, possession of one just provides a waiver of he mandatory waiting period. CPL holders still have to fill out the forms and wait for the NICS check.

    What I see this law doing is either eliminating private sellers from Gun Shows, making them a get together of Licensed Dealers and Jerkey sales people, or the show promoters will have to make provisions to have Law Enforcement man a booth to provide the necessary checks. Kind of like the "waiting room" area at Cabela's.

    Like it or not, I think this law has a pretty good chance of being enacted.
    Just making an observation that while gunsmiths are a type 1 FFL. If you have a type 1 FFL you are exempt from NICS check of private sales. USC 18 has some vague language regarding what is considered "conducting business", suffice to say if you are a part time weekend smith you could be at risk.

    If you are a type 03 FFL and are engaged in transactions with another 03 FFL this bill will punish you for it. FFL type 03 is licensed by the Fed to engage in commerce but this bill makes it unlawful. How about internet sales to 03 FFL's which is also perfectly legal. For all the collectors out there, B.O.H.I.C.A. I do not think it is really enforceable, rather it creates a system that promotes disregard.

    Then there is the whole privacy issue and what to do with the state generated permission slip after the block is checked.

    What happens to my permission slip if NICS returns anything other that "proceed with sale" ?

    So now I am thinking I should go get my 01 FFL I can make all the private sales I want with no NICS check.
    That is in fact what the bill says.

    This bill is supposed to be targeting "certain people", such as felons, minors, and involuntarily committed persons.
    I'll buy you a steak dinner if you can convince me background checks of private sales (execept 01 FFL's) prevent sales to those "certain people".



    ~Whitney
    Last edited by Whitney; 02-01-2013 at 08:30 PM. Reason: syntax
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  8. #8
    Regular Member Venya's Avatar
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    I hit this one at some length here. I'd appreciate it if someone wants to fact-check me, lest I mislead by my ignorance. I also wrote my representatives last night.

  9. #9
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Nics

    Quote Originally Posted by Venya View Post
    I hit this one at some length here. I'd appreciate it if someone wants to fact-check me, lest I mislead by my ignorance. I also wrote my representatives last night.
    I will post the citation if I can find it.....

    CPL only provides you same day possession where you would otherwise wait. You still get run through NICS.

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  10. #10
    Regular Member Whitney's Avatar
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    Qoute my own qote ????/

    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    I will post the citation if I can find it.....

    CPL only provides you same day possession where you would otherwise wait. You still get run through NICS.

    ~Whitney

    I stand self corrected.
    Permanent Brady Permit Chart

    Washington Concealed pistol license issued on or after July 22, 2011 qualify.

    http://www.atf.gov/firearms/brady-law/permit-chart.html

    ~Whitney
    The problem with America is stupidity.
    I'm not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

  11. #11
    Regular Member Venya's Avatar
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    That caveat is worth noting, however; I hadn't realized that. Thank you.

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    They are part of the State, they would be exempt from it.--gun buybacks ought to be a no questions asked.

    - At very least, they need to run the firearms after being received and if stolen return it to the rightful owner. Running numbers and returning the arms should be managed by a third party, like a gun shop, not the state or the police alone (since both can be shady).
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    Given the list of sponsors, I would expect this has a good chance of passing. As such, it is very important for everyone to speak out early and often about this.

    From the summary page is a link to comment on the bill, it makes it very easy. Once you make your comment, you sign up with some information and your comment goes to your representatives based on address.

    I entered the following comment:

    This sets up a defacto registration and creates a hardship for those private citizens wishing to buy, sell, or bequeath a firearm. Requiring fees to excercise a right is clearly an infringement on that right and as such is unconstitutional under Article 1, Section 24 of the state Constitution. Criminals, by definition do not follow the law and this would have little if any impact on the illegal acquisition of firearms. With no real benefit, and several negative impacts on law abiding citizens, this is an ill conceived, knee-jerk reaction to current events. Time and resources would be better spent addressing issues such as mental health and strict enforcement of existing gun laws. I strongly urge you to oppose this bill.


    Our only hope is to be vocal and fight everyone of these so-called "sensible" ideas that chip away at the ability to exercise our rights without intrusion and registration.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    This will only affect law abiding citizens, and will do very little to prevent criminals and crazies from getting guns.
    - (preaching to the choir i know) - Criminals and crazies don't follow the law, and wont follow this law either, so what changes the manner in which they transfer guns among each other?? - absolutely nothing. They are simply levying laws against the good people in order to tighten their grip as a government.
    Last edited by Batousaii; 02-02-2013 at 12:37 PM.
    ~ ENCLAVE vmc ~
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    * " To be swayed neither by the opponent nor by his sword is the essence of swordsmanship." - Miyamoto Musashi.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batousaii View Post
    - At very least, they need to run the firearms after being received and if stolen return it to the rightful owner. Running numbers and returning the arms should be managed by a third party, like a gun shop, not the state or the police alone (since both can be shady).
    They are running the firearms, and making an attempt to find the owner, if the firearm is found to be stolen.

    A few years ago I had a handgun taken from me by SPD. They run a background check before returning it.
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 02-02-2013 at 02:31 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

  16. #16
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 911Boss View Post
    Given the list of sponsors, I would expect this has a good chance of passing. As such, it is very important for everyone to speak out early and often about this.

    From the summary page is a link to comment on the bill, it makes it very easy. Once you make your comment, you sign up with some information and your comment goes to your representatives based on address.
    I agree.....The majority of co-sponsors are dem's...but there are a number of rep's... I would expect that this will pass out of the Judiciary committee that has control of it since I counted at least 6 members of the committee as sponsors...ie. I don't know if it will migrate to another committee first, but eventually it ends up on the 'Rules" committee, where it sits until they call it up to the Floor for a vote....and then passed over to the Senate side and starts over.

    For this bill too, when you follow the link to the page, scroll down and look at the Fiscal Analysis...that will tell another part of the story...how much does it cost? How much does it generate....
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

  17. #17
    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    I contacted all my reps and sen today about this, everyone else should do the same.

    http://app.leg.wa.gov/DistrictFinder/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    They are part of the State, they would be exempt from it.--gun buybacks ought to be a no questions asked.
    "(2)(a) No unlicensed person may sell a firearm to another unlicensed person unless the purchaser has undergone a background check in accordance with the provisions of this subsection

    (g) For the purposes of this subsection (2), "unlicensed person" means any person who is not licensed as a dealer under this chapter."

    I don't see how a police officer would not be an unlicensed person under this bill when the bill explains quite clearly that the only people who are not unlicensed are dealers. The police need specific exemptions for other stuff in the RCW, I don't see why they wouldn't for this.

    The work-around is easy enough, have a licensed dealer process all the purchases. Another option would be to have the purchaser documents pre-filled out and just process them over and over again, once for each gun, all with the Sheriff there to sign off on them.

    Also, the bill explicitly states "sell". So apparently gifts are okay. And yes, I know that even if gifts are not a violation you could not skirt this law by selling someone a pack of gum for $1200 while they "gift" you a Kimber.

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    Just noticed something else. As currently written even if someone passes a background check if you sell them a firearm you would still be committing a misdemeanor if the person is ineligible to possess a firearm under state or federal law. So basically if there is any mistake in the check, or if information is just lacking, like a felony conviction not on the persons record properly because it happened in the 60's, you would be committing a misdemeanor.

  20. #20
    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    http://www.kitsapsun.com/news/2013/f...ground-checks/

    Not going to quote it all but 1 line got to me.
    Hope, a Seattle police officer, said the private transactions are occurring all the time and are attractive for criminals who can avoid a background check. He noted that when his employer recently held a gun buyback program, some people were on the streets buying weapons from people who were waiting in line.

    "That's exactly what we want to go after. We don't know who's buying the gun," Hope said.
    Looks like Seattle's pissed of that they're catching flak for the buy back and that it was taken over.
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  21. #21
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Hearing Feb 13th, 2013 8am

    I will be there to testify against this bill as a private seller/person in the state of Washington.

    If you can not make it please post hear precise and concise (1 paragraph's) reasons why this bill will not be effective.

    nick
    Live Free or Die!

  22. #22
    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    http://www.examiner.com/article/wash...ose-to-passing

    Quote Originally Posted by Wash. state bill to end private firearm sales dangerously close to passing
    HB 1588 is the legislation that would end private firearm sales in Washington state. The bill would require all people privately selling firearms to friends or family to pay a $20 fee to have a gun dealer or law enforcement agency process the request with absolutely no guarantee of timely processing either.

    Concealed Pistol License (CPL) holders who are exempt from having to undergo background checks when purchasing from a licensed dealer would now be required to pay the fee and wait as well despite going through the extensive FBI check to obtain the CPL in the first place.

    The bill, written by Representatives Jamie Pederson (D), has picked up 36 sponsors including Republican Mike Hope from the 44th district. The bill is scheduled for a hearing in front of the House Judiciary Committee this Wednesday, February 13 at 8 a.m. Four of the bill's sponsors are currently committee members.
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  23. #23
    Regular Member Damiansar-15's Avatar
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    Tax on Rights!

    Yet another tax on rights protected by the Constitution... Can you imagine if the Legislators imposed a $20 background check on voters to ensure they were eligible to vote? With all of the voter fraud going on these days, this seems as appropriate as mandating background checks on private firearms transfers. How about a mandated life sentence or death penalty for commiting a felony with a weapon? This would solve the gun violence real quick... I suppose Progressive legislators only want to crack down on law-abiding citizens and not criminals...

  24. #24
    Regular Member 1245A Defender's Avatar
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    Well,,,

    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    I will be there to testify against this bill as a private seller/person in the state of Washington.

    If you can not make it please post here precise and concise (1 paragraph's) reasons why this bill will not be effective.

    nick
    Effective enforcement would require,,,
    Suspend the 4th amendment!!!
    Require cops to inspect the "Registration Card", that must be carried, WITH any gun, that is carried, anywhere, anytime, by anyone!
    ALL Guns would REQUIRE this card,,, whether carried or just kept in the home, which would also subject to search..
    EMNofSeattle wrote: Your idea of freedom terrifies me. So you are actually right. I am perfectly happy with what you call tyranny.....

    “If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin.”

    Stand up for your Rights,, They have no authority on their own...

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    it is their right and duty to be at all times ARMED!

  25. #25
    Regular Member Bill45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whitney View Post
    Just making an observation that while gunsmiths are a type 1 FFL. If you have a type 1 FFL you are exempt from NICS check of private sales. USC 18 has some vague language regarding what is considered "conducting business", suffice to say if you are a part time weekend smith you could be at risk.

    If you are a type 03 FFL and are engaged in transactions with another 03 FFL this bill will punish you for it. FFL type 03 is licensed by the Fed to engage in commerce but this bill makes it unlawful. How about internet sales to 03 FFL's which is also perfectly legal. For all the collectors out there, B.O.H.I.C.A. I do not think it is really enforceable, rather it creates a system that promotes disregard.

    Then there is the whole privacy issue and what to do with the state generated permission slip after the block is checked.

    What happens to my permission slip if NICS returns anything other that "proceed with sale" ?

    So now I am thinking I should go get my 01 FFL I can make all the private sales I want with no NICS check.
    That is in fact what the bill says.

    This bill is supposed to be targeting "certain people", such as felons, minors, and involuntarily committed persons.
    I'll buy you a steak dinner if you can convince me background checks of private sales (execept 01 FFL's) prevent sales to those "certain people".



    ~Whitney
    OK, for those of us over 50. What does B.O.H.I.C.A. stand for?

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