Armed officer at school stops school shooting 1/31/2013

Beretta92FSLady said:

Yea, there would be no waiting. I am for armed security in schools, during school hours. Meaning, there's an armed person sitting on their ass, waiting...IMO, it's best if it were an LEO...there are other things LEO's handle at schools, particularly high schools.

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No arguments from me re a uniformed officer in school. Though, I'd rather he be out and about instead of surfing the web in a office. Especially in HS.

The problem with SRO's is they do other things than student security. Including making lunch runs, which is what happened at Columbine. Plus the students then know who is armed and what their schedule and habits are. Armed staff is a better option, more cost effective, more reactive to only serious threats, and the students have no idea who is actually armd.

How about both a uniform and armed staff.

Guess what biden just did, he just stuck his foot in his mouth again, not good for the Obama Agenda. They promised these laws that would fix the issues of "gun violence" and we need to capitalize on this. I hope the NRA sees this.

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/01/...entally-alter-the-chances-of-a-mass-shooting/


Biden:These new gun control laws won’t stop mass shooting
"Nothing we're going to do is going to fundamentally alter or eliminate the possibility of another mass shooting or guarantee that we will bring gun deaths down to 1,000 a year from what it is now," Biden told reporters Thursday afternoon after he spent over an hour lunching with Democratic senators at the Capitol.

"But there are things that we can do, demonstrably can do, that have virtually zero impact on your Second Amendment right to own a weapon for both self defense and recreation that can save some lives," he said…

"I'm not saying there's an absolute consensus on all these things," Biden said, "but there is a sea change, a sea change in the attitudes of the American people. I believe the American people will not understand -- and I know that everyone in that caucus understands -- they won't understand if we don't act.

I still think we should put guns in glass cases like fire extinguishers."break in case of fire" so to speak.

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crazydude6030 said:

I still think we should put guns in glass cases like fire extinguishers.
"break in case of fire" so to speak.

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Your name fits.

Beretta92FSLady said:

I will keep it simple: I'm for armed security in schools--LEO's.

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Let's keep this simple 'm for armed security in schools WITHOUT INCREASING GOVERNMENT COSTS AND EXPENSE, allow those who desire be they school employees/teachers/bus drivers or parents of students to carry in all schools!!!!

Think of it as the same as FIRE EXTINGUISHERS in the schools instead of making them station a firefighter in the school!

MKEgal said:

Your name fits.

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Thanks

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I went to google maps & looked at a picture of the school. It looks like the courtyard is outside. So the superintendant wondering about the metal detector is sort of odd - those would be for getting in the building, right? Maybe they were installed after the picture was taken, but I don't see fences around the courtyard, nor metal detectors outside.

Joe Biden’s bill to put law enforcement — actual police offers — in schools after they’ve received adequate training.

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So apparently just going through the police academy isn't enough for Biden.
And he'd rather force schools or cities to pay the (what's a starting wage for a LEO? $40,000?) per school for one officer
than
the virtually no expense it'd take for each principal to make & sign an announcement saying that anyone with a license is allowed to carry a pistol in the school zone while school is in session or school events are happening. (Or be even more expansive - any adult lawfully in possession of a firearm.) That'd meet the requirements of the federal "GF"SZ law, unless state law somehow manages to ignore the federal code.

Beretta92FSLady said:

Do I want some tea party 2.0 private citizen, armed, standing post at my kids school? F-no! I'll take my chances with an LEO.

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I'd rather have someone there on the spot at the time Something Bad happens who's willing & able to stand up to someone intending to commit mass murder (until the police arrive)
than
wait for the 911 call to be made, answered, have the calltaker understand what's happening and where, pass the info to a dispatcher, relayed to any cars which happen to be in the area (maybe), the officers to drive to the school, then enter the school & figure out where to go, then finally confront the BG (if he hadn't shot himself yet).

Heck, look at the instance under discussion here. Someone at the spot on the time Something Bad happened was able to stop a shooter with only 2 people injured. Anyone read how long it took after that for police to arrive?

Beretta92FSLady said:

There's no reason why teachers should be armed

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Why are you here??
Reason #1: self-defense
Reason #2: protecting the children
And nobody (except anti-gunners) is saying that everyone in a school (or even anyone in the school) must be armed. Following federal law allows people to make a choice. If they want to protect themselves & their students, they can carry. If they don't, they won't. Either way, nobody knows until SHTF.

OC for ME said:

[clarifying]: A teacher must not be permitted to be lawfully armed while on the job.
That teacher must rely upon LE to protect them.
This policy fails virtually every time it is complied with.

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+1 How much more data do we need in order to conclusively show that disarming good people does not stop bad people?
Looking specifically at schools, we have over 10 years of experience in Utah. Nothing bad has happened because of armed staff, and they don't have school shootings.

OC for ME said:

The officer was off duty, it seems, and therefore an "ordinary citizen" who happens to be exempt from GFSZ laws because he is a LEO.

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Actually, GA law says off-duty LEO are the same as anyone else. Only on-duty (or en route to & from) are exempted.
See section (c)(5)(A) here:
(c) The provisions of this Code section [weapons prohibited on school property] shall not apply to:
(5) The following persons, when acting in the performance of their official duties or when en route to or from their official duties:
(A) A peace officer as defined by Code Section 35-8-2

The federal code makes the same exemption - on-duty only - but the school zone is school property & 1000' from the edge in all directions.

Biden said:

there are things that we can do, demonstrably can do, that have virtually zero impact on your Second Amendment right to own a weapon for both self defense and recreation that can save some lives

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In reading court decisions for various gun-related (or in general, rights-related) cases, infringing on a right requires that the government prove a strong relationship between their imposition or infringement and their stated goal.

Since peer-reviewed scientifically-done studies have shown NO proof that any gun-control law yet tried has reduced the rate of violent crime, unless they come up with a new idea the gov't can't meet its burden of proving their infringement (whether it's large or "virtually zero") relates to their goal... so that attempt at control is out.

JoeSparky said:

Let's keep this simple 'm for armed security in schools WITHOUT INCREASING GOVERNMENT COSTS AND EXPENSE, allow those who desire be they school employees/teachers/bus drivers or parents of students to carry in all schools!!!!

Think of it as the same as FIRE EXTINGUISHERS in the schools instead of making them station a firefighter in the school!

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Nah, a tax should be paid for the security.

MKEgal said:

*snippers*


I'd rather have someone there on the spot at the time Something Bad happens who's willing & able to stand up to someone intending to commit mass murder (until the police arrive)
than
wait for the 911 call to be made, answered, have the calltaker understand what's happening and where, pass the info to a dispatcher, relayed to any cars which happen to be in the area (maybe), the officers to drive to the school, then enter the school & figure out where to go, then finally confront the BG (if he hadn't shot himself yet).

*snippers*

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"Willing, and able." I get the sense that most teachers become teachers, to teach, not to think tactically.

As I stated previously, armed security should be in schools...there would be no person to call, because there would be security patrolling the school.

WalkingWolf said:

The problem with SRO's is they do other things than student security. Including making lunch runs, which is what happened at Columbine. Plus the students then know who is armed and what their schedule and habits are. Armed staff is a better option, more cost effective, more reactive to only serious threats, and the students have no idea who is actually armd.

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Of course, you still have to solve those staff who think drawings of guns and threats to shoot classmates with bubble guns are terroristic threats. /sarcasm

Beretta92FSLady said:

I get the sense that most teachers become teachers, to teach, not to think tactically.

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So the staff who choose not to be able to defend themselves & their students wouldn't be armed. I know there are teachers who are willing & able. Probably more in some areas than in others due to vagaries of society.

This free class for UT teachers to get their carry permits was full - 200 new guardians. And the instructor pictured (in the striped tie) is a member here. In talking with him, I know he's taught teacher classes for years.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-classes-teachers-utah-ohio-shooting/1793773/

See where the article says that UT, NH, & OR allow anyone with a license to be armed in schools? And DE & OH generally allow it, but school districts can choose to override federal law (putting their students at risk).

Show us the problems in those states.

As I stated previously, armed security should be in schools... there would be no person to call, because there would be security patrolling the school.

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So we agree that more protection is good, only you want to have higher taxes & more government employees (with an officer in every school)
while it seems the rest of us here want to give all adults the choice of whether or not to protect themselves (which could mean none in a school, or could mean 10% of the staff are armed), and have less burden on taxpayers.

Staff would already have paid for their own self-defense tools, their own training, their own licenses... The school wouldn't be out any money at all (beyond the paper & ink to publish the announcement from the principal).

MKEgal said:

So the staff who choose not to be able to defend themselves & their students wouldn't be armed. I know there are teachers who are willing & able. Probably more in some areas than in others due to vagaries of society.

This free class for UT teachers to get their carry permits was full - 200 new guardians. And the instructor pictured (in the striped tie) is a member here. In talking with him, I know he's taught teacher classes for years.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...-classes-teachers-utah-ohio-shooting/1793773/

See where the article says that UT, NH, & OR allow anyone with a license to be armed in schools? And DE & OH generally allow it, but school districts can choose to override federal law (putting their students at risk).

Show us the problems in those states.

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All I'm saying is that armed security ought to be at schools. I would rather have someone who has tactical training--assuming teachers don't have tactical training.

So we agree that more protection is good, only you want to have higher taxes & more government employees (with an officer in every school)
while it seems the rest of us here want to give all adults the choice of whether or not to protect themselves (which could mean none in a school, or could mean 10% of the staff are armed), and have less burden on taxpayers.

Staff would already have paid for their own self-defense tools, their own training, their own licenses... The school wouldn't be out any money at all (beyond the paper & ink to publish the announcement from the principal).

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Having security in schools would likely lead to a need for higher taxes. I have issues with government employees, but in this case, no issue whatsoever.

So, staff would have to pay, out of pocket, for personal security items...teachers pay out of pocket, enough. No thanks.

Beretta92FSLady said:

All I'm saying is that armed security ought to be at schools. I would rather have someone who has tactical training--assuming teachers don't have tactical training.



Having security in schools would likely lead to a need for higher taxes. I have issues with government employees, but in this case, no issue whatsoever.

So, staff would have to pay, out of pocket, for personal security items...teachers pay out of pocket, enough. No thanks.

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You mean like police officers that can't hit the broad side of a barn? But yet LAC have much higher proficiency, and take more bad guys out without shooting innocent bystanders?

WalkingWolf said:

You mean like police officers that can't hit the broad side of a barn? But yet LAC have much higher proficiency, and take more bad guys out without shooting innocent bystanders?

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LEO's who can't hit the broad side of a barn should not be hired.--a job at McDonalds is a good Plan B.

WalkingWolf said:

You mean like police officers that can't hit the broad side of a barn? But yet LAC have much higher proficiency, and take more bad guys out without shooting innocent bystanders?

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Good point.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/Contagious.Fire.htm

Events of May 9, 2005 in Compton, California, were brought into the living rooms of millions of Americans. Captured on video was the aftermath of a 12 minute vehicular chase in which 13 deputies from the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department engaged an “unarmed” suspect with over 120 rounds of handgun fire. The suspect, 44-year-old Winston Hayes, was hit only four times and survived.

Hit Ratio In OIS With 1 Only Officer Involved 51%

Hit Ratio In OIS With 2 Officers Involved 23%

Hit Ratio In OIS With 2 Officers Involved 9%

zack991 said:

Good point.

http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/Contagious.Fire.htm

Events of May 9, 2005 in Compton, California, were brought into the living rooms of millions of Americans. Captured on video was the aftermath of a 12 minute vehicular chase in which 13 deputies from the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department engaged an “unarmed” suspect with over 120 rounds of handgun fire. The suspect, 44-year-old Winston Hayes, was hit only four times and survived.

Hit Ratio In OIS With 1 Only Officer Involved 51%

Hit Ratio In OIS With 2 Officers Involved 23%

Hit Ratio In OIS With 2 Officers Involved 9%

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Anecdotal.

There aren't too many studies regarding civilian v. LEO shootings.

I'm not aware of a time where 13 civilians shot 120 rounds at an unarmed person.

Beretta92FSLady said:

"Willing, and able." I get the sense that most teachers become teachers, to teach, not to think tactically.

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The problem is they have to think of security now more than ever. Always have. Rather its a kidnapping, fire, or school shooting teachers have to think about these things.

I argue that being prepared is a good thing to teach children. Also don't forget there are schools where teachers carry with no reported problems

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Beretta92FSLady said:

LEO's who can't hit the broad side of a barn should not be hired.--a job at McDonalds is a good Plan B.

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Shooting under stress is much different than plinking paper. From what I have seen most cops choose to follow only what is required

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