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Thread: TNT - About 1 in 12 WA state adults have a CPL

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    TNT - About 1 in 12 WA state adults have a CPL

    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2013/0...l?storylink=fb

    The line starts forming at 7:30 a.m. — an hour before the office opens.


    By the time staff members at the Law Enforcement Support Agency unlock the doors, the crowd has grown to 40 or 50 — mostly white men — and winds down the sidewalk along Tacoma Avenue South.

    They’re waiting for concealed pistol licenses – the pieces of paper that allow private citizens to pack loaded pistols in public.

    In Pierce County and throughout the state, people have been grabbing up concealed pistol licenses at unprecedented rates since the elementary school massacre at Newtown, Conn., and President Barack Obama’s subsequent vow to reduce gun violence.

    In January, with Tacoma crowds so heavy at times that some applicants reported four-hour waits, LESA set a record for itself with 1,964 license applications, about twice the usual volume.

    The number of concealed pistol licenses had been rising fast even before the latest push for gun control. Statewide, according to the Department of Licensing, the number of license holders went from 239,000 in 2006 to 392,784 at the end of 2012, a 64 percent increase.

    For perspective, that’s about 1 of every 12 adults in the state.

    Meanwhile, gun buyers have stripped the shelves nearly bare at local gun shops in a rush to buy firearms and ammunition of all sorts.

    “Everybody’s panic buying,” said Dan Davaies, co-owner of Mary’s Pistols in Tacoma. “Demand is far exceeding supply.”

    “I’ve got everything on order. I mean everything.”

    The rapid increase in the number of people buying firearms and applying for concealed weapon permits worries gun-control advocates, who are urging Congress to restrict assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines, and require more thorough background checks.

    Here in Washington, gun control groups including the Brady Campaign to Reduce Gun Violence and Washington CeaseFire, view with alarm the skyrocketing numbers of people allowed to carry concealed weapons.

    They cite the state’s comparatively liberal licensing policies and the number of deaths and injuries caused by license holders.

    “Right now you fill out a form and they basically have to give you a concealed weapons permit,” said Ralph Fascitelli, spokesman for Washington CeaseFire. “We want to make sure that people known to be dangerous don’t get permits.”

    Gun-rights advocates, on the other hand, are unperturbed with the increasing number of people seeking concealed gun permits.

    “I don’t think it’s anything to worry about, but I’m not jumping back flips, either,” said Dave Workman, a Washington native who’s communications director for the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.

    “I’m kind of indifferent about it,” he said. “The fact that citizens are exercising their rights doesn’t alarm me, and it shouldn’t anybody else.”

    ‘SHALL ISSUE’ STATE

    Washington’s concealed weapons law is among the country’s most relaxed. This is a “shall issue” state, which means that as long as minimum legal standards are met, the government can’t refuse a license.

    There’s a background check and a 30-day waiting period. Applicants must be at least 21, have no history of serious mental illness and, with some exceptions, no past felonies. Applicants don’t have to explain why they want the license, and local police have almost no discretion in granting them. Washington is one of a handful of states that issues licenses to nonresidents as well as residents.

    Those are among the reasons the Brady Campaign gives Washington a score of 15 points out of a possible 100 in its most recent rankings of states based on laws aimed at curbing gun violence. The state loses most points in the categories of record retention, identifying guns used in crimes, reporting of lost or stolen guns, background checks on gun sales.

    Most disturbing to gun-control advocates such as Washington CeaseFire, is Washington requires no training or demonstration of proficiency by a person seeking a concealed pistol license. Only two other states — Georgia and Pennsylvania — have no competency or training requirements.

    Tighter regulation of concealed weapon licenses is one of CeaseFire’s legislative goals for 2014, Fascitelli said

    The lines of people waiting for concealed pistol permits also is not comforting to Pierce County sheriff’s spokesman Ed Troyer.

    “Having more armed, untrained people does not help,” he said.

    “It’s not really easy to shoot bad guys without having the bullets end up someplace else,” he said. “It’s not like you see on TV. We’ve gone to scenes where people have fired six or seven rounds and hit everything but their target.”

    Lack of training can lead to trouble, advocates note. The Brady Campaign keeps a running tally of unintentional shootings and close calls on its website.

    One local example: A Poulsbo man who legally carried his loaded .38-caliber pistol into the Kitsap Mall last month has become a case in point for those who argue that at least minimal training standards should be established.

    When the 58-year-old man bent over in the Silverdale CostPlus World Market, his gun fell out of his coat pocket. It went off when it hit the floor, sending a shot that ricocheted off a bed frame and into a stack of rope baskets. No one was hurt, but the store manager evacuated the store as a precaution.

    There are far more serious examples of gun accidents and crimes committed by concealed license holders.

    A driver left a loaded 9 mm pistol — with a round in the chamber — under a car seat when he got out to pay for fuel at a Tacoma gas station last March. A 3-year-old passenger picked up the gun and accidentally shot himself in the head. He died at Mary Bridge Children’s Hospital and Health Center.

    Making the case that armed amateurs can be an effective force against crime became more difficult to make in Pierce County in 2005.

    That was the year Dan McKown, a local comedian and holder of a concealed pistol license, tried to stop an attempted mass murderer in the Tacoma Mall. After taking out his gun to confront the shooter, McKown was shot five times and ended up permanently paralyzed without ever firing his weapon.

    GUN-RIGHTS ADVOCATES

    In the war of anecdotes, gun-rights advocates have ammunition, too.

    They cite a situation in December at a mall in Clackamas County, Ore., in which a 22-year-old man armed with an AR-15 rifle began firing at Christmas shoppers in the mall’s food court. An armed citizen drew his weapon and aimed it at the gunman. The gunman retreated and then shot himself.

    In another case, in 2007 at a New Life church in Colorado, a gunman who killed a church member was killed himself by another armed congregant.

    Workman knows those stories, but he doesn’t like to play the game of dueling anecdotes.

    “I’m not sure there’s any evidence one way or another that it has been a detriment to society to have a lot of armed citizens,” he said. “If you take a fair look at the evidence, you’re not going to win an argument either way.

    “I will make this observation, though,” Workman said. “We have seen a decline in violent crime in this country in the past several years, when at the same time there’s been a increase in the number of private citizens carrying guns. That does tend to fly in the face of all the gloom and doom of the gun control lobby.”

    WHAT’S AHEAD

    Few expect changes in Washington’s concealed weapons law anytime soon. With regard to getting concealed weapons permits, there’s been a clear trend toward leniency in recent years.

    Ten years ago, seven states had laws that prohibited carrying concealed handguns. Now, after lobbying by gun-rights groups, no states have such laws. In December, a federal appeals court struck down the last such ban in Illinois.

    Since 2002, three states — Alaska, Arizona and Wyoming — joined Vermont in allowing concealed weapons without permits, and in 2010 Congress made it legal to carry loaded, concealed weapons in national parks.

    In the Washington Legislature, one proposed bill would tangentially affect the concealed pistol law.

    Senate Bill 5282, proposed by Sen. Mike Carrell, R-Lakewood, would create a more complete database of mental health commitment information to improve the quality of background checks related to firearm purchases and concealed carry permits.

    If his bill passes, Carrell says, it would help track serious mental health problems that he believes are sometimes not revealed in the state’s current system.

    “There’s a lack of coordination in record-keeping,” Carrell said. “The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing.”

    No opposition to the bill has emerged publicly so far, but its first hearing is not until Tuesday in the Senate Committee on Human Services and Corrections.

    Carrell believes his bill is an example of finding common ground between extremes in the gun violence debate.

    “This is the sort of stuff people on both side of the aisle can agree on,” Carrell said. “It’s part of an overall public safety thing — making sure people don’t fall through the cracks.”

    Rob Carson: 253-597-8693
    rob.carson@thenewstribune.com

  2. #2
    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    His skills at yellow journalism need polishing. He's obviously heavily biased and distorting truth, since even cursory research should show the glaring errors in his article, but he missed many opportunities to twist facts in favor of his opinion.

    The newspaper industry is really going down hill, when professional wordsmiths are so inarticulate.

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    Regular Member 1911er's Avatar
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    laughable

    New York (CNN) -- On a busy Friday morning in Manhattan, nine pedestrians suffered bullet or fragment wounds after police unleashed a hail of gunfire at a man wielding a .45 caliber pistol who had just killed a former co-worker.

    The officers unloaded 16 rounds in the shadow of the Empire State Building at a disgruntled former apparel designer, killing him after he engaged in a gunbattle with police, authorities said.

    Three passersby sustained direct gunshot wounds, while the remaining six were hit by fragments, according to New York Police Commissioner Ray Kelly. All injuries were caused by police, he said Saturday.

    One officer shot nine rounds and another shot seven.

    Police identified the gunman as Jeffrey Johnson, 58, who was apparently laid off from his job as a designer of women's accessories at Hazan Import Co. last year.

    Johnson, who served in the U.S. Coast Guard in the mid-1970s, had two rounds left in his pistol. It holds eight, Kelly said.


    AND HE SAYS that we need training
    I truly Love my Country, But the government scares the he!! out of me.

    DEMAND IT
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    I came into this world kicking and screaming covered in someone else's blood. And if necessary to protect the Constitution of The United States of AMERICA. I will go out the same way

    All hail the Domain of Neptunus Rex

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    Regular Member decklin's Avatar
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    There are several errors in that article. It's always nice when they check their "facts".
    "Loyalty above all else except honor. " -John Mahoney

    "A Government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take away everything you have." -Gerald R. Ford

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    Regular Member 1911er's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decklin View Post
    There are several errors in that article. It's always nice when they check their "facts".

    +1
    I truly Love my Country, But the government scares the he!! out of me.

    DEMAND IT
    Congress SHALL NOT receive A salary greater than any service member and will be given EQUIVELANT insurance as any service member

    I came into this world kicking and screaming covered in someone else's blood. And if necessary to protect the Constitution of The United States of AMERICA. I will go out the same way

    All hail the Domain of Neptunus Rex

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    TNT - About 1 in 12 WA state adults have a CPL

    I dislike Ed Troyer.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

  7. #7
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    We’ve gone to scenes where people have fired six or seven rounds and hit everything but their target.
    Laughable, is that scenes where the cops raided homes or shot at people?

    Collateral damage "civilians" @2%

    Collateral damage LEO @ 8-11%
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    I dislike Ed Troyer.
    Tom, ....and here I thought he was you pal! He did such a decent job of handling your interaction and all...

    This was quoted in the article.....

    "They cite the state’s comparatively liberal licensing policies and the number of deaths and injuries caused by license holders."


    Is there actually a statistic on the number of deaths and injuries by CPL holders in WA? I sure would like to see that breakdown....
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    Tom, ....and here I thought he was you pal! He did such a decent job of handling your interaction and all...

    This was quoted in the article.....

    "They cite the state’s comparatively liberal licensing policies and the number of deaths and injuries caused by license holders."


    Is there actually a statistic on the number of deaths and injuries by CPL holders in WA? I sure would like to see that breakdown....
    That's why some want a duty to retreat bill, you know those poor people who are made to suffer by CPL holders, how dare they endure any force while trying exert force upon innocents.

    Of course the lack of statistics of OC'ers proves a point too....
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  10. #10
    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    That's why some want a duty to retreat bill, you know those poor people who are made to suffer by CPL holders, how dare they endure any force while trying exert force upon innocents.

    Of course the lack of statistics of OC'ers proves a point too....
    ...you know that this is yet another bill that is in the works....(legislative sausage grinder)...I think it has been withdrawn (for now).
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member jt59's Avatar
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    Well after another 10 seconds, I decided to call Rob out out on the question....I 'll see if he responds and post it here...

    This is what I sent him:

    Rob,

    In your article About 1 in 12 state adults can carry concealed pistol , published Feb 3, 2013

    You quoted Washington Ceasefire as saying:

    “They cite the state’s comparatively liberal licensing policies and the number of deaths and injuries caused by license holders.”


    Either your anti-gun bias in the article is showing, or this is plainly just poorly written. I have never seen or read any WA state statistic from a recognized agency that demonstrates any validity to the statement above written in your article.

    If you can find one that specifically details this claim by WA CPL holders, I would like you (or them) to produce it.

    This claim is also not in context to anything like say, the number of deaths and injuries expressed as a rate, as in “how many deaths and injuries” have occurred by CPL holders per 100,000 citizens in WA using a firearm?

    Does this statistic include CPL holders that commit vehicular homicide while driving under the influence, but not an injury involving a firearm? Does it also include Medical Doctors who are CPL holders that kill their patients for medical malpractice, mis-diagnosis, or leaving medical equipment inside surgical patients? ....and yes I know these are extreme examples to make a point...just like what you let “they” get away with without challenge......This approach of "Serial Disinformation" is what "they" are known for and you fell for it!


    If your going to be a reporter... DO YOUR JOB!
    Last edited by jt59; 02-03-2013 at 08:43 PM.
    Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the grey twilight that knows not victory nor defeat....Teddy Roosevelt

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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    TNT - About 1 in 12 WA state adults have a CPL

    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    Well after another 10 seconds, I decided to call Rob out out on the question....I 'll see if he responds and post it here...

    This is what I sent him:

    Rob,

    In your article About 1 in 12 state adults can carry concealed pistol , published Feb 3, 2013

    You quoted Washington Ceasefire as saying:

    “They cite the state’s comparatively liberal licensing policies and the number of deaths and injuries caused by license holders.”


    Either your anti-gun bias in the article is showing, or this is plainly just poorly written. I have never seen or read any WA state statistic from a recognized agency that demonstrates any validity to the statement above written in your article.

    If you can find one that specifically details this claim by WA CPL holders, I would like you (or them) to produce it.

    This claim is also not in context to anything like say, the number of deaths and injuries expressed as a rate, as in “how many deaths and injuries” have occurred by CPL holders per 100,000 citizens in WA using a firearm?

    Does this statistic include CPL holders that commit vehicular homicide while driving under the influence, but not an injury involving a firearm? Does it also include Medical Doctors who are CPL holders that kill their patients for medical malpractice, mis-diagnosis, or leaving medical equipment inside surgical patients? ....and yes I know these are extreme examples to make a point...just like what you let “they” get away with without challenge......This approach of "Serial Disinformation" is what "they" are known for and you fell for it!


    If your going to be a reporter... DO YOUR JOB!
    It seems main-stream media is the only place you can't find an "investigative journalist" these days. The real ones are "just bloggers" like David Codrea.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member Metalhead47's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jt59 View Post
    Well after another 10 seconds, I decided to call Rob out out on the question....I 'll see if he responds and post it here...

    This is what I sent him:

    snip

    If your going to be a reporter... DO YOUR JOB!

    Um... I really hope you didn't make that grammatical faux pas while criticizing his writing skills... Does nothing to help your credibility with him...
    It is very wise to not take a watermelon lightly.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Laughable, is that scenes where the cops raided homes or shot at people?

    Collateral damage "civilians" @2%

    Collateral damage LEO @ 8-11%
    Police know that they will almost always be shielded from liability, so they're a lot more likely to come down on the shoot side of a shoot/don't shoot decision. Private citizens have no civil or criminal immunity qualified or otherwise, so we have to be damn sure of our shot before we even put our finger on the trigger and even if our shot is totally justified and 100% accurate we still might get sued and/or arrested and charged.

    Is it any wonder that those numbers are like that?

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    Police know that they will almost always be shielded from liability, so they're a lot more likely to come down on the shoot side of a shoot/don't shoot decision. Private citizens have no civil or criminal immunity qualified or otherwise, so we have to be damn sure of our shot before we even put our finger on the trigger and even if our shot is totally justified and 100% accurate we still might get sued and/or arrested and charged.

    Is it any wonder that those numbers are like that?
    Doesn't surprise me, I still "wonder" at it though, how do these people live with themselves, how has our society progressed to a point we put our dogs up on pedestal rationalizing and letting them get away with their criminal actions.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Batousaii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    Doesn't surprise me, I still "wonder" at it though, how do these people live with themselves, how has our society progressed to a point we put our dogs up on pedestal rationalizing and letting them get away with their criminal actions.
    Because at some point we failed to hold all humans equally accountable for their actions, and have even given various degrees of lordship to our servants. I will even point out that we have allowed the omnipotence of a select few, where even muttering words of a certain candor against them can get you arrested.

    • It is in fact OUR fault, our own lack of strength and integrity, a failure to stand our ground that has allowed this condition to arise, where they now breed sheeple into a supple mass of human lethargy through media propaganda and social conditioning. It won’t stop until we slam the breaks, and that sure as hell won’t be much fun.
    Last edited by Batousaii; 02-04-2013 at 01:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Difdi View Post
    Police know that they will almost always be shielded from liability, so they're a lot more likely to come down on the shoot side of a shoot/don't shoot decision. Private citizens have no civil or criminal immunity qualified or otherwise, so we have to be damn sure of our shot before we even put our finger on the trigger and even if our shot is totally justified and 100% accurate we still might get sued and/or arrested and charged.

    Is it any wonder that those numbers are like that?
    I am actually pretty sure the main reason for those numbers is because criminals tend to assail private citizens in their homes or when nobody else is around, while police almost always have people around when they have to shoot.

    I am sure what you are saying is also a factor, but the bigger factor is definitely the difference in when and where shootings tend to take place between these too groups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911er View Post

    AND HE SAYS that we need training
    Yeah, we train monkeys .. not people

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    Campaign Veteran since9's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2013/0...l?storylink=fb

    The line starts forming at 7:30 a.m. — an hour before the office opens.
    How are things looking these days?

    When I went in to get my Washington State Concealed Carry Permit, about twenty-three years ago, I was the only one in the office. It arrived about 26 days later.
    Last edited by since9; 07-27-2014 at 01:03 AM.
    The First protects the Second, and the Second protects the First. Together, they protect the rest of our Bill of Rights and our United States Constitution, and help We the People protect ourselves in the spirit of our Declaration of Independence.

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    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    early this month it was reported that more than 461,000 people had concealed pistol licenses in Washington. We have about 7 million folks in the state.

    If I did my math right, that's about 1 in 15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    early this month it was reported that more than 461,000 people had concealed pistol licenses in Washington. We have about 7 million folks in the state.

    If I did my math right, that's about 1 in 15.
    Nah, your math is off.

    You've got to subtract the number of children and unqualified people. Out of approx. 7 million, it would be fair to say 2.5 million are people under age 21. Another half-million can't obtain a CPL because they're illegals, convicted felons or disqualified misdemeanants, or they're mentally deficient.

    Leaves you approx 4 million. The 461,000 number is from July 2. That's probably up another 1,000 to 1,500 . There ya go.

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    Regular Member Dave_pro2a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    I dislike Ed Troyer.
    This should tell you everything you need to know about Ed Troyer:

    His son, charged with statutory rape
    http://annecarolinedrake.com/2012/04...tatutory-rape/

    His daughter 'disappears' with a registered sex offender (not his son)
    http://www.seattleweekly.com/dailywe...found_safe.php

    Remember that expression "where there's smoke there's fire?" Well that kind of hyper sexual behavior doesn't normally happen in a vacuum -- it is usually preceded by abuse within the family.

  23. #23
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Workman View Post
    Nah, your math is off.

    You've got to subtract the number of children and unqualified people. Out of approx. 7 million, it would be fair to say 2.5 million are people under age 21. Another half-million can't obtain a CPL because they're illegals, convicted felons or disqualified misdemeanants, or they're mentally deficient.

    Leaves you approx 4 million. The 461,000 number is from July 2. That's probably up another 1,000 to 1,500 . There ya go.
    Some good points. I will ad that a lot of people carry who don't get permits including felons. So the chance folks are around armed people increases.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Who, I had to ask, is Ed Troyer? Santo fumo!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    http://www.thenewstribune.com/2013/0...l?storylink=fbThe lines of people waiting for concealed pistol permits also is not comforting to Pierce County sheriff’s spokesman Ed Troyer.
    I am responsible for my writing, not your understanding of it.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arentol View Post
    I am actually pretty sure the main reason for those numbers is because criminals tend to assail private citizens in their homes or when nobody else is around, while police almost always have people around when they have to shoot.
    One of the more disturbing trends in police lack of marksmanship is the growing tendency to charge the guy the cop was shooting at with the assault and/or murder of the bystander the cop actually hit.

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