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Thread: Consuming "Adult Beverages" While OCing

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Consuming "Adult Beverages" While OCing

    I know that drinking while OCing is not illegal, but I wonder why it is frowned upon. I can understand that drinking to excess could lead to trouble, but surely 1 or 2 drinks isn't terrible. I have heard that it might cast us in a negative light, but personally I think that showing that we can be responsible is a good thing.
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Because some crazy people think that alcohol affects your ability to reason.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Because some crazy people think that alcohol affects your ability to reason.
    Well just like there are legal limits to driving, I would not want to drink too much while I was carrying.
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    You'll find opinions vary a bit, but break down in the vast majority being opposed to drinking carry for three main reasons---image, danger (temper, safety), and slower response time/poorer shooting skill.

    A small percentage, myself included, is of the opinion that if a person knows his limit and can drink responsibly while armed, go ahead. I firmly believe that a person does not surrender his right to self-defense just because he's had a drink. And, an OCer whose behavior is not showing an influence is no justification for adverse image. Like you, I kinda think it demonstrates responsibility.

    One thing you'll hear is the automatic "guns and alcohol don't mix!" The problem is that mantra was developed for shooting/hunting. And, is so broad brush it catches those who can drink a little and still not have an accident.

    But, do understand I am talking literally about one or two drinks, and if its two drinks it needs to be stretched out across time. If a fella is gonna have to handle his firearm at any point while under more than a very slight influence, he's asking for trouble. For example, his wife is driving. They get home from the restaurant, and he starts to disarm. Any non-defense situation where the gun is going to be handled demands a minimum alcohol influence from a safety standpoint.

    Whoever is contemplating a drink while armed really needs to think through on it.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-03-2013 at 03:39 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    You'll find opinions vary a bit, but break down in the vast majority being opposed to drinking carry for three main reasons---image, danger (temper, safety), and slower response time/poorer shooting skill.

    A small percentage, myself included, is of the opinion that if a person knows his limit and can drink responsibly while armed, go ahead. I firmly believe that a person does not surrender his right to self-defense just because he's had a drink. And, an OCer whose behavior is not showing an influence is no justification for adverse image. Like you, I kinda think it demonstrates responsibility.

    One thing you'll hear is the automatic "guns and alcohol don't mix!" The problem is that mantra was developed for shooting/hunting. And, is so broad brush it catches those who can drink a little and still not have an accident.

    But, do understand I am talking literally about one or two drinks, and if its two drinks it needs to be stretched out across time. If a fella is gonna have to handle his firearm at any point while under more than a very slight influence, he's asking for trouble. For example, his wife is driving. They get home from the restaurant, and he starts to disarm. Any non-defense situation where the gun is going to be handled demands a minimum alcohol influence from a safety standpoint.

    Whoever is contemplating a drink while armed really needs to think through on it.
    That is how it usually goes down with me. I let my wife drive us home, and for me, disarming is simply taking the gun/holster combo of and sitting it on my headboard. I only completely unload if I am doing drills, or cleaning.
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    I thought we banned consuming alcohol while carrying? Or was that only in restaurants?

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    Regular Member mbhudson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    I know that drinking while OCing is not illegal, but I wonder why it is frowned upon. I can understand that drinking to excess could lead to trouble, but surely 1 or 2 drinks isn't terrible. I have heard that it might cast us in a negative light, but personally I think that showing that we can be responsible is a good thing.
    the potential problem that you run in to is preclusion assuming your carrying for personal defense here is the potential problem if (god forbid) you are forced to use your weapon to (stop) a threat you will certainly have to explain your actions either to law enforcement or a judge at some point if youve been drinking your odds of being held will increase dramatically and when you go to court and explain what happened the attorneys at the other table will use preclusion against you they will paint a picture that if you hadnt been drinking you would have had a clearer mind and may have been able to avoid the problem to begin with

    legal limit has no bearing on the fact that any alcohol in your system starts to effect/impair your ability to think and act like you normally would and that will be used to place some of the responsibility with you would your be charged with murder probably not but manslaughter maybe or you may escape legal charges BUT then theres the civil suit that follows and that lawyer will again use the fact that you were drinking to imply that if you hadnt been you may have seen a way out of the situation and therefore you are atleast partially responsible (PAY UP)

    I say all this to say is it worth it ? if I were gonna drink I would either stay home or not carry because if Im ever forced to use my weapon I want there to be no question of whether or not I may be partially liable for doing so

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marshaul View Post
    I thought we banned consuming alcohol while carrying? Or was that only in restaurants?
    One may not CC and indulge - OC is not so restricted - see excerpts from 18.2-308 below. Understand that you may CC in a restaurant, just don't drink alcohol.

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises.

    Also please note that there is no threshhold:
    J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-03-2013 at 05:54 PM. Reason: added
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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    Beat me to it, Grapeshot, I was going to mention that "under the influence" is really up to the interpretation of the responding officer as there is no set limit as there is with driving... it's a really sticky grey area that I'd just as soon avoid altogether. Besides, whether one feels intoxicated or not, even two drinks can sometimes put you close to or even over the legal driving limit (I bought a battery operated portable breathalyzer years ago when I used to go clubbing to make sure I never drove under the influence, and you'd be shocked at how little you have to drink to go over that limit, and I even had a COP calibrate it and compare it to his own, and my little $50 unit was just as accurate as his). Ever since then I'm ultra cautious about drinking outside the home, and never while OC.

  10. #10
    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    One may not CC and indulge - OC is not so restricted - see excerpts from 18.2-308 below. Understand that you may CC in a restaurant, just don't drink alcohol.

    J3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises.

    Also please note that there is no threshhold:
    J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol or illegal drugs while carrying such handgun in a public place, shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. Conviction of any of the following offenses shall be prima facie evidence, subject to rebuttal, that the person is "under the influence" for purposes of this section:
    http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-308
    Hasn't it always been this way?

    I seem to recall there was a change in the law about 2 years ago or so. Something about a politician down Norfolk way or thereabouts.

    Incidentally, this was one of the main reasons I never bothered to get a CHP, followed closely by the whole address-publishing business. That and the complete lack of need to CC ever (I don't even contemplate getting the permit anymore – what for?).

    Quote Originally Posted by Justine View Post
    Beat me to it, Grapeshot, I was going to mention that "under the influence" is really up to the interpretation of the responding officer as there is no set limit as there is with driving... it's a really sticky grey area that I'd just as soon avoid altogether. Besides, whether one feels intoxicated or not, even two drinks can sometimes put you close to or even over the legal driving limit (I bought a battery operated portable breathalyzer years ago when I used to go clubbing to make sure I never drove under the influence, and you'd be shocked at how little you have to drink to go over that limit, and I even had a COP calibrate it and compare it to his own, and my little $50 unit was just as accurate as his). Ever since then I'm ultra cautious about drinking outside the home, and never while OC.
    Assuming the law I was thinking of never passed, that section only applies to those with CC permits. I have freely OCed while consuming *a* beer. Who cares?

    Seriously, nobody does.
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-03-2013 at 06:13 PM.

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    It is legal (as long as you're not concealed in a restaurant or club), you're a free man and responsible for your own actions. That said - use your best judgment and live your life as you please!

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverdance View Post
    It is legal (as long as you're not concealed in a restaurant or club), you're a free man and responsible for your own actions. That said - use your best judgment and live your life as you please!
    In a perfect world or if living in a vacuum that might be reasonable, but not when what I do can effect so many other people. I will not bring negative attention to VCDL, to open carry advocates or other RKBA groups when such is easily avoided by making decisions that do not give appearance of impropriety. I believe it is better to be above reproach than to argue the fine points.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    As already stated, but perhaps not quite this way...

    This is one of those areas of life where you are simply not in control of what happens as a result of your actions. It is an unfortunate but true part of life that sometimes we are unjustly judged, and there is nothing we can do about it.

    There are at least three categories of people who might observe you drinking while carrying a firearm:

    1. Those who are our "friends" who fully understand that it is possible and even normal to have a couple of drinks and still be a responsible, law-abiding citizen.

    2. Those who are neutral, and uninformed about any aspects of the issue. These folks will observe and simply not know what the situation is, whether it's legal or not, whether you are a threat, whether it's perfectly fine. These opinions will be based on their lifetime of experiences, and will have nothing to do with you, your character, your training, your personality or your ability to safely drink.

    3. Those who are most definitely NOT our friends. These are the folks who would use ANY information to their advantage to hurt our cause. They may know full well that you are breaking no laws, and that you are not a threat to them or anyone else, but the only thing that counts in this world is appearances.

    One additional thing to think about, an observer of your actions is not necessarily there for the entire time you are. They are going to take only two facts, that you are carrying a firearm, and that you are drinking. The time you are there, and the rate or even amount of consumption are not a part of their reaction, just those first two facts, which are all they need to do much damage.

    If a law enforcement officer is called, your position is quite weak, because the facts are already well established that you are carrying a firearm, and you have been drinking. Every sentence you start with the LEO will begin with, "Yes, but..." This is not a good position from which to negotiate.

    There is basically no way to come out a winner in this scenario, because you never know who is watching, and what their agenda may be. It's a question each person must answer for them self, but is that one or two drinks really worth the risk?

    TFred

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    As has been mentioned already, if you use your defensive firearm in any manner while you care under the influence of alcohol, legal or illegal drugs, or other mood-altering substances you are giving the prosecution and the plaintiff in any civil action a large hook to hang you out to dry on.

    And there is no statutory "floor" for being under the influence - any detectable amount counts. If CCing any detectable amount is a misdemeanor in abnd of itself. If CCing or OCing any detectable amount could (and probably will be) used as the basis for criminal charges relating to the use of your defensive firearm - from brandishing to involuntary/voluntary mansalughter (or attempted same) just to name a few possibilities you could be staring at even when three Popes, two Mother Teresaa and the entire ABC news team are witnesses that you were absolutely and completely, utterly blameless in the incident and that the threat could not be stopped exept by the use of dealy force - not even a miracle performed simultaneously by a host of 18 saints, cherubim, and sarifim all acting independently.

    Commercial airline pilots must have an 8-hour window between any drug use and assuming command of an aircraft (pilot , copilot, flight engineer) and many extend that out to 10 or 12 hours "just to be sure".

    Like the airline folks, it is a calculated risk we are looking at. "Most" folks who legally imbibe while carrying do not get into a situation where being under the influence is called into question. But you never know when something is going to rear up its ugly head and try to ruin your day.

    "Do not go stupid places, with stupid people, and do stupid things" covers a lot of what one might otherwise think was not covered by that saying.

    It's your decision what to do. Be sure to call us if you need bail money; we probably won't have it but we sure would enjoy hearing about why you need it.

    stay safe.
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    First of all, I think the second and third posters immediately above are assuming a very public setting like a restaurant, which the OP does not stipulate. The later statutory quote steered in that direction. Drinking at a social gathering like a back deck is entirely a possibility.

    Second, it is precisely because of arguing the fine points that the oath ex officio and the High Commission were abolished in favor of the right against self-incrimination and a written presentment of charges aka written indictment given to the defendant.

    And, how many hundreds of times did we as OCers hear, "Don't OC. It makes pro-gun people look bad because..." And, now we have OCers---OCers!!---worrying about what other people are gonna think.

    It is precisely because nobody is effectively arguing the fine points that the Fourth Amendment is being systematically destroyed by the executive and judicial branches.

    With all due respect, gentlemen, quit flinching and giving credit to knee-jerk reactions, and start developing effective arguments for those gunners so knee-jerk they are offended and start griping, "Guns and alcohol don't mix."

    We're the shock-troops of the gun lobby, dammit. We set our agenda and control the dialogue.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-03-2013 at 09:37 PM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen View Post
    First of all, I think the second and third posters immediately above are assuming a very public setting like a restaurant, which the OP does not stipulate. The later statutory quote steered in that direction. Drinking at a social gathering like a back deck is entirely a possibility.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    With all due respect, gentlemen, quit flinching and giving credit to knee-jerk reactions, and start developing effective arguments for those gunners so knee-jerk they are offended and start griping, "Guns and alcohol don't mix."
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen
    We're the shock-troops of the gun lobby, dammit. We set our agenda and control the dialogue.
    I couldn't agree more; this is precisely how I approach this forum, and RKBA advocacy in general.

    And the cool part is, for the most part, it really does work that way. I submit that, at their best, the discussions had on this very forum (and a few others, of course) set the standards for the RKBA advocacy.

    First, it may be nothing more than a collection in one thread of the most modern, effective, and irrefutable arguments in defense the RKBA, or for some particular policy stance. But, these arguments may percolate through the larger RKBA culture, and eventually may (will?) have perceptible influence on the policy expectations of the RKBA movement as a whole.

    Or: why start with weak sauce if others are only going to attempt to dilute the stew?
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-03-2013 at 10:56 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    ... Every sentence you start with the LEO will begin with, "Yes, but..." This is not a good position from which to negotiate...
    How much alcohol does it take to remember not to talk to the police?

    Y'all should come out West sometime. We'll take you to bars with guns on our hips.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MAC702 View Post
    Y'all should come out West sometime. We'll take you to bars with guns on our hips.
    I'm down.

    Although, *ahem* pariah that I am, I have done this in Virginia, too. No big deal.

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    Regular Member Esanders2008's Avatar
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    Consuming "Adult Beverages" While OCing

    Well I suppose it is time to give my after action report. I went to Kelly's tavern near my apartment with my wife and a couple of friends. I had 2 drinks, 1 at kickoff, and another after halftime. I drank lots of water in between . I only had positive comments on my sidearm, one from a former police officer who thanked me for exercising my rights, and another from a curious gentleman. I gave both of them OC cards, and continued on my night. Also, go ravens!
    ...To make my bullets go faster!

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Also please note that there is no threshhold:
    J1. Any person permitted to carry a concealed handgun, who is under the influence of alcohol
    There is a user of this message board that is also an attorney.. I am not. That user has explained to me that the moment you have taken one sip of alcohol you are "under the influence".. maybe not my much.. but by legal definition you are.. it has been consumed and is in your body. Your defense in an arrest both for being "under the influence" especially if you had to shoot... would wind up being a VERY costly beer.. not to mention the negative impact many of us feel in inflict on others that carry and do not drink in public while carrying.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    There is a user of this message board that is also an attorney.. I am not. That user has explained to me that the moment you have taken one sip of alcohol you are "under the influence".. maybe not my much.. but by legal definition you are.. it has been consumed and is in your body. Your defense in an arrest both for being "under the influence" especially if you had to shoot... would wind up being a VERY costly beer.. not to mention the negative impact many of us feel in inflict on others that carry and do not drink in public while carrying.
    Solution: no CHP.

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    Just my opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by Esanders2008 View Post
    I know that drinking while OCing is not illegal, but I wonder why it is frowned upon. I can understand that drinking to excess could lead to trouble, but surely 1 or 2 drinks isn't terrible. I have heard that it might cast us in a negative light, but personally I think that showing that we can be responsible is a good thing.
    I am a firm believer that guns and alcohol do not mix. I am not willing to take a chance if god forbid, something happens.

    The "antis" claimed it would be the wild west when the law changed, and as usual, they were wrong.

    That said, each of us are adults and responsible for our actions.

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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    personally, in my humble inexperienced opinion, if someone has consumed a glass of wine or a beer at a grill or restaruant that really shouldn't be an issue, now hard liqour, cocktails, or is drunk that's another story.

    I've never seen anyone completely lose control of their mind after just one or two beers or a glass of wine, ever. It's sad that this is even an issue IMO
    they love our milk and honey, but they preach about some other way of living, when they're running down my country man they're walkin' on the fightin side of me

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The "booze and guns don't mix" mantra, and laws, is a means to control the citizenry. Sell your firearms if you have a drink from time to time. Or, do not drink.....ever.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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