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Thread: Self Defense Shooting on School Property

  1. #1
    Regular Member DCKilla's Avatar
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    Self Defense Shooting on School Property

    http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/man-sho...ool-in-detroit

    How will this pan out? I'm not sure of your guys' laws.

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    Regular Member Mosnar87's Avatar
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    Re: Self Defense Shooting on School Property

    Apparently the coach is a reserve policeman, one of the "only ones" allowed to CC in a school in MI.

    So he should be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosnar87 View Post
    Apparently the coach is a reserve policeman, one of the "only ones" allowed to CC in a school in MI.

    So he should be fine.

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    Agreed....he is allowed to CC. Unless proven otherwise, it sounds like a good shoot!

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    The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. I am certain the anti's will log this as " gun violence". They will never understand.

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    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I don't know why he needed to shoot them. I'm sure if we would have simply informed them having a firearm on school property is illegal per state and federal law they would have apologized and left to be outside of the 1,000 foot gun free law.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosnar87 View Post
    Apparently the coach is a reserve policeman, one of the "only ones" allowed to CC in a school in MI.

    So he should be fine.

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    True but they were not "in" the school, they were "in" the parking lot... which would be a place where any CPL holder could carry concealed.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

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    Regular Member Mosnar87's Avatar
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    Re: Self Defense Shooting on School Property

    Also true, however they were coming from "in" the school and as such, any other law abiding CPL holder (who doesn't OC) would have been disarmed.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mosnar87 View Post
    Also true, however they were coming from "in" the school
    A supposition that may or may not be true... the article does not state that he was "in" the school.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mosnar87 View Post
    and as such, any other law abiding CPL holder (who doesn't OC) would have been disarmed.
    This also is dependent on a number of factors, none of which can be gleaned from the information given.

    I'm not trying to be argumentative and, if you are commenting to make people understand that MCL 28.425o needs to be eliminated, I support your comments. My point is that there are reasonable interpretations, and dare I say, exceptions, to MCL 28.425o, that by eliminating the "CC Prohibited" section of our CPL law, we are only removing a section of law that really serves little purpose.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-05-2013 at 09:43 AM.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    Regular Member Pond Scum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    True but they were not "in" the school, they were "in" the parking lot... which would be a place where any CPL holder could carry concealed.

    Not my interpretation Doc.

    From MCL 28.425o.

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    The way I read this is that "any CPL" holder can't carry in the parking lot. You need to be a parent or legal guardian dropping off or picking up the child from school. AND you have to be IN the vehicle. If you aren't dropping off or picking up you are in violation. If you get out of the car CC'ing you are in violation. I'm pretty careful what I do when I pick up the grandkids. And what do I do if I'm picking them up from a sporting event at at an away game?? The law says " of a student of the school ". Lots of ways an anti gun prosecutor can give you the smack down.

    The shooter in this case should be okay since he is a reserve cop. The rest of us would have needed to leave it in the car or risk arrest. We need to have the PFZ's removed so us normal people can protect ourselves too.
    Last edited by Pond Scum; 02-05-2013 at 10:41 AM.

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Self Defense Shooting on School Property

    Quote Originally Posted by Pond Scum View Post
    Not my interpretation Doc.

    From MCL 28.425o.

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    The way I read this is that "any CPL" holder can't carry in the parking lot. You need to be a parent or legal guardian dropping off or picking up the child from school. AND you have to be IN the vehicle. If you aren't dropping off or picking up you are in violation. If you get out of the car CC'ing you are in violation. I'm pretty careful what I do when I pick up the grandkids. And what do I do if I'm picking them up from a sporting event at at an away game?? The law says " of a student of the school ". Lots of ways an anti gun prosecutor can give you the smack down.

    The shooter in this case should be okay since he is a reserve cop. The rest of us would have needed to leave it in the car or risk arrest. We need to have the PFZ's removed so us normal people can protect ourselves too.
    You missed this in MCL 28.425o:

    (4) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Mosnar87's Avatar
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    Re: Self Defense Shooting on School Property

    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    A supposition that may or may not be true... the article does not state that he was "in" the school.
    You are correct, that was a mere supposition on my part... The article does, however, state that there was crime scene tape near the back of the gym... Given the time of year, and the weather, holding basketball practices indoor seemed probable to me.


    This also is dependent on a number of factors, none of which can be gleaned from the information given.

    I'm not trying to be argumentative and, if you are commenting to make people understand that MCL 28.425o needs to be eliminated, I support your comments. My point is that there are reasonable interpretations, and dare I say, exceptions, to MCL 28.425o, that by eliminating the "CC Prohibited" section of our CPL law, we are only removing a section of law that really serves little purpose.
    The elimination of the ludicrous "pistol free zone" (which we both know is actually only lawfully CCed pistol free) and the arbitrary list of "only ones" allowed to CC past the boundaries of the "pistol free zone" is one of my personal priorities, so yes, my goal is to help people understand that this law needs to go.


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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrTodd View Post
    A supposition that may or may not be true... the article does not state that he was "in" the school.
    He was the school's "girls basketball team coach". They don't play basketball outside at Detroit schools.
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    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Can school districts now allow people with CPLS to carry in their schools? Why yes they can.

    750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.Sec. 237a.
    (1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated.
    (b) Community service for not more than 150 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than 3 times the maximum fine authorized for the section violated.
    (2) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(1), 224d, 226a, 227c, 227d, 231c, 232a(1) or (4), 233, 234, 234e, 234f, 235, 236, or 237, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for the first time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated or 93 days, whichever is greater.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00 or the maximum fine authorized for the section violated, whichever is greater.
    (3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to conduct proscribed under a section enumerated in those subsections to the extent that the proscribed conduct is otherwise exempted or authorized under this chapter.
    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

    (e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

    (f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:
    (i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.
    (ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    (iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
    (iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) “Antique firearm” means either of the following:
    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or a replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.
    (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.
    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.

    Last edited by Venator; 02-05-2013 at 02:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venator View Post
    Can school districts now allow people with CPLS to carry in their schools? Why yes they can.

    750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.Sec. 237a.
    (1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated.
    (b) Community service for not more than 150 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than 3 times the maximum fine authorized for the section violated.
    (2) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(1), 224d, 226a, 227c, 227d, 231c, 232a(1) or (4), 233, 234, 234e, 234f, 235, 236, or 237, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for the first time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated or 93 days, whichever is greater.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00 or the maximum fine authorized for the section violated, whichever is greater.
    (3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to conduct proscribed under a section enumerated in those subsections to the extent that the proscribed conduct is otherwise exempted or authorized under this chapter.
    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.

    (e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

    (f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:
    (i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.
    (ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    (iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
    (iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    (6) As used in this section:
    (a) “Antique firearm” means either of the following:
    (i) A firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898, including a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or a replica of such a firearm, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
    (ii) A firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
    (b) “School” means a public, private, denominational, or parochial school offering developmental kindergarten, kindergarten, or any grade from 1 through 12.
    (c) “School property” means a building, playing field, or property used for school purposes to impart instruction to children or used for functions and events sponsored by a school, except a building used primarily for adult education or college extension courses.
    (d) “Weapon free school zone” means school property and a vehicle used by a school to transport students to or from school property.
    A CPL holder is still bound by 28.425o. There is no provision under 28.425o that permits CPL holders to carry (OC or CC) in schools (non-parking lot) with express consent. There are those who are exempt under Section (5), security, reserve, leo, etc.

    If this was not the case, we wouldn't have the OC "loophole." i.e. 237a provides an exemption for CPL holders from this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon, but 28.425o prohibits CC.

  15. #15
    Regular Member Pond Scum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    You missed this in MCL 28.425o:

    (4) As used in subsection (1), "premises" does not include parking areas of the places identified under subsection (1).


    IEeeeeeieeeeeeieeeeeeee!!! Thanks coach! Sorry Doc!!
    Last edited by Pond Scum; 02-05-2013 at 03:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    A CPL holder is still bound by 28.425o. There is no provision under 28.425o that permits CPL holders to carry (OC or CC) in schools (non-parking lot) with express consent. There are those who are exempt under Section (5), security, reserve, leo, etc.

    If this was not the case, we wouldn't have the OC "loophole." i.e. 237a provides an exemption for CPL holders from this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon, but 28.425o prohibits CC.
    Well OC with a CPL in a school is already legal IMHO. Now if they're going to carry concealed if the school hired them as security like you say then yes they could.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
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    Detroit — Martin Luther King Jr. Senior High School assistant basketball coach Ernest Robinson told police he was walking out of the school gym Friday night with two of his players when two teens approached, one brandishing a blue-steel revolver.

    "Don't move," the gun-toting teen told Robinson, according to the story he told investigators, which is in police reports obtained by The Detroit News.

    The youths "then attempted to grab Mr. Robinson, and a struggle ensued," one report said. Robinson then removed from his 2009 Dodge Journey "his licensed firearm, a Glock 22 .40 caliber blue-steel semi-auto and fired numerous shots …. Mr. Robinson did not know if his shots took effect."



    From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ixzz2KAThgt7w\

    Anyone else call BS on the old man getting to his car to pull his gun in the middle of a fight with two teens, one of the teens being armed?? That old man had his gun on him...no doubt about it.

  18. #18
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    The coach was exempt.
    Last edited by griffin; 02-06-2013 at 11:28 PM.
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    A source tells 7 Action News that on surveillance video, the coach is seen struggling with the teens and then when he is able to get some distance between himself and them, he pulls out his gun and fires, striking both of them.


    Read more: http://www.wxyz.com//dpp/news/region...#ixzz2KAz89EWL

    Interesting that this article doesn't mention the old man pulling his gun from his car...and there is video. Guess the answer is on the tape.

  20. #20
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Detroit — Martin Luther King Jr. Senior High School assistant basketball coach Ernest Robinson told police he was walking out of the school gym Friday night with two of his players when two teens approached, one brandishing a blue-steel revolver.

    "Don't move," the gun-toting teen told Robinson, according to the story he told investigators, which is in police reports obtained by The Detroit News.

    The youths "then attempted to grab Mr. Robinson, and a struggle ensued," one report said. Robinson then removed from his 2009 Dodge Journey "his licensed firearm, a Glock 22 .40 caliber blue-steel semi-auto and fired numerous shots …. Mr. Robinson did not know if his shots took effect."



    From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ixzz2KAThgt7w\

    Anyone else call BS on the old man getting to his car to pull his gun in the middle of a fight with two teens, one of the teens being armed?? That old man had his gun on him...no doubt about it.
    Yep - sure sounds fishy. If he did have it on him in the school this is the perfect example of why citizens should be allowed to carry in schools for self-defense. If he did really have to fight all the way to his car - is that not just a sad statement of how stupid our gun laws are? Either way this gentleman is lucky to be alive. Wonder if the armed attackers knew if they were in a gun free zone? I'm sure if they did they would have left instantly.
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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    That old man had his gun on him...no doubt about it.
    Perhaps it's so obvious it doesn't warrant mentioning, but many faculty members in Detroit schools have been carrying concealed in spite of the laws for many decades. The furthest back I have ever heard someone admit to it would be a guy who was a janitor in the 60's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scot623 View Post
    Detroit — Martin Luther King Jr. Senior High School assistant basketball coach Ernest Robinson told police he was walking out of the school gym Friday night with two of his players when two teens approached, one brandishing a blue-steel revolver.

    "Don't move," the gun-toting teen told Robinson, according to the story he told investigators, which is in police reports obtained by The Detroit News.

    The youths "then attempted to grab Mr. Robinson, and a struggle ensued," one report said. Robinson then removed from his 2009 Dodge Journey "his licensed firearm, a Glock 22 .40 caliber blue-steel semi-auto and fired numerous shots …. Mr. Robinson did not know if his shots took effect."



    From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...ixzz2KAThgt7w\

    Anyone else call BS on the old man getting to his car to pull his gun in the middle of a fight with two teens, one of the teens being armed?? That old man had his gun on him...no doubt about it.
    It doesn't matter if he was carrying or pulled it from his vehicle. He is exempt as he is also a reserver officer.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    It doesn't matter if he was carrying or pulled it from his vehicle. He is exempt as he is also a reserver officer.
    Yes it does, even as a reserve officer. Other than employed/contracted to provide security for the school, 28.425o, does not provide an exemption for employees of a school. As an employee, the school district may very well prohibit employees to possess/carry weapons even off the clock.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXDacp View Post
    Yes it does, even as a reserve officer. Other than employed/contracted to provide security for the school, 28.425o, does not provide an exemption for employees of a school. As an employee, the school district may very well prohibit employees to possess/carry weapons even off the clock.
    I disagree as he is a reserve officer......

    (5) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to any of the following:
    (g) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is an auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by budlight View Post
    I disagree as he is a reserve officer......

    (5) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to any of the following:
    (g) An individual who is licensed under this act and who is an auxiliary officer or reserve officer of a police or sheriff's department.
    I'll try it a different way...

    Lets say Budlight is a Volunteer (Paid or Unpaid) Reserve Deputy for Wayne County Sheriff's Department. Budlight attempts each month to work the required, minimum 20 hours (example), with the department to maintain his status with the department. Budlight's full-time job is maintenance with Wyandotte Public School District. Wyandotte Public School District prohibits students, teachers, faculty, from possession of weapons while at work. Even though Budlight has exemption status under 28.425o, Subsection (5), as a Reserve Deputy, his exemption status does not extend to his place of work where weapons possessed/carried by faculty are prohibited.
    Last edited by SpringerXDacp; 02-10-2013 at 06:42 PM.

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