"thou shalt not kill"

Oh, so we are going to limit their freedoms of expression and religion--unless that expression happens to resemble atheism.

We are all equal. Some are more equal than others.

Religion "Any objective attended to or pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion". Because one acknowledges God and His morals Does not mean one is devoted to Him. Do you not see the moral standard in the 10 Commandments, if not what are you going to base your moral standards on? By the way atheism IS a religion!

Atheism is to religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby. Atheism is literally the complete lack of belief. So no. Not a religion.

McLintock said:

Do you not see the moral standard in the 10 Commandments, if not what are you going to base your moral standards on?

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The majority of libertarians espouse the Principle of non-aggression, which was espoused by Jesus (although not the 10 commandments), according the only bible I keep a copy of.

It is a standard of morality far more compatible with living, other cultures, and the teachings of Jesus (for those who believe those have inherent weight) than the 10 commandments could ever be.

Where I live, I see people driving around all the time with these 10 commandments bumper stickers (always the same one, yet for some reason I can't find a picture on the internets) which say "one nation under GOD", the implication clearly being either that the 10 commandments provide the basis for our laws/moral standards, or they ought to if they currently do not.

I would quite literally fight to the death to avoid living in a country with the 10 commandments enshrined in law.

Let's see how many of the 10 commandments, enshrined in law, would be incompatible with the principle of non-aggression and with basic liberties (alternatively, even if you don't want to see them become law, let's see how many are plain ridiculous):

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's goods.

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Apparently now the law ought to be concerned with thoughts, rather than actions.

My neighbor has a really nice Walther P-38. One day I'd like to buy one of my own. JAIL FOR ME!

9. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.

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Some of the women in my past are now married. Sometimes, I still think about them. HELLFIRE ISN'T ENOUGH! JAIL!!!!!

8. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

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I agree. So far we're at 1/10.

7. You shall not steal.

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2/10. Although I note apparently this commandment doesn't, nor I believe would it should they be enshrined in law, apply to government.

6. You shall not commit adultery.

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Well, at least we could use this one to jail 99% of politicians.

But seriously, it's good that couples can decide for themselves whether to apply biblical proscriptions to their relationship, or how to react when those proscriptions are violated. That isn't something to be enshrined in law, to be handed down on high from our betters in government.

5. You shall not kill [murder].

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Assuming it's murder, that's a good one. 3/10.

4. Honor your father and your mother.

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I have, at some point in my life, had an argument with my parents, wherein I would have undoubtedly accrued some jail time were this law.

I also point out that, in the real world, some parents are not deserving of respect, and in fact it may be detrimental to the child to hold any.

3. Remember to keep holy the LORD'S Day.

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WTF is this? Sundays are already lame enough here in Virginia, with ABCs closed on Sunday in observance of TEH LAWD. No, thanks.

2. You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.

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I will if I ******* want to. JAIL FOR ME!

1. I am the LORD your God: you shall not have strange Gods before me.

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Fortunately, the Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't strange (at least not compared to the abomination which came up with that ridiculous list), so I guess I'm good here. But then again, JAIL FOR ME!




That's precisely 3/10 which have any bearing at all on "morality" as defined by anything other than the bible or related works, or have any place at all being enshrined in law. I could do better in a drunken stupor.

You can keep your "commandments", and their false "morality".

Frankly, I would ask in counter how a person has any developed morals at all, with nothing but the flimsy 10 commandments as a foundation. "Do not kill" and "do not steal" are the obvious ones children figure out.

/rant

marshaul said:

The majority of libertarians espouse the Principle of non-aggression, which was espoused by Jesus (although not the 10 commandments), according the only bible I keep a copy of.

It is a standard of morality far more compatible with living, other cultures, and the teachings of Jesus (for those who believe those have inherent weight) than the 10 commandments could ever be.

Where I live, I see people driving around all the time with these 10 commandments bumper stickers (always the same one, yet for some reason I can't find a picture on the internets) which say "one nation under GOD", the implication clearly being either that the 10 commandments provide the basis for our laws/moral standards, or they ought to if they currently do not.

I would quite literally fight to the death to avoid living in a country with the 10 commandments enshrined in law.

Let's see how many of the 10 commandments, enshrined in law, would be incompatible with the principle of non-aggression and with basic liberties:





/rant

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An additional thought that popped into my head while reading your post.

The Israelites lived in a fairly anarchistic/libertarian society too, their prophet/religious leader Samuel warned them of imitating the nations around them in their desire for a King, and sure enough the establishment of a central power caused lots of problems.

sudden valley gunner said:

The Israelites lived in a fairly anarchistic/libertarian society too, their prophet/religious leader Samuel warned them of imitating the nations around them in their desire for a King, and sure enough the establishment of a central power caused lots of problems.

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I recall reading a rather detailed analysis of the Old Testament in this vein, one which was explicitly libertarian. I suspect you may have read the same thing, as it's likely as not I was directed to it in the first place because someone posted it here. Do you remember what I'm talking about?

I did find that quite an interesting piece, although it could be said that it's just another example of the myriad ways a "divine" text can be interpreted to suit the agenda of the interpreter.

marshaul said:

I recall reading a rather detailed analysis of the Old Testament in this vein, one which was explicitly libertarian. I suspect you may have read the same thing, as it's likely as not I was directed to it in the first place because someone posted it here. Do you remember what I'm talking about?

I did find that quite an interesting piece, although it could be said that it's just another example of the myriad ways a "divine" text can be interpreted to suit the agenda of the interpreter.

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I would like to read that too. My analysis was my thoughts on it having read the bible a few times and really liking the era before the Kings. Even though nothing was spelled out in their over 600 "laws" they had, they had found a voluntary way of resolving disputes, without taxation for judges and a centralized government. The people would fight in more of a volunteer militia standard in defense of their homeland from invasion. (of course this overlooks the fact they kicked others out of that land to have it.....)

McLintock said:

Religion "Any objective attended to or pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion". Because one acknowledges God and His morals Does not mean one is devoted to Him. Do you not see the moral standard in the 10 Commandments, if not what are you going to base your moral standards on? By the way atheism IS a religion!

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By your definition, I'd say atheism is not a religion, but militant atheism is.

But, then, that's kinda been my point all along!


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<o>

If we are to live by the 10 commandments I say that first we need to rewrite them to where all 10 pertain to morality. My 4 year old could come up with 10 better rules than what's currently given.

eye95 said:

Oh, so we are going to limit their freedoms of expression and religion--unless that expression happens to resemble atheism.

We are all equal. Some are more equal than others.

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Actually it would resemble Secularism. Our government SHOULD be a Secular government, where the government does not recognize one belief system to be of greater value than another. I don't care what other people believe, as long as they do not try to pass laws or force me and/or my children to participate in their indoctrinations. Most of the "militant Atheists" as you call them, are people who do not tolerate tax money to go towards 10 commandment statues, or schools teaching their children creationism. Those two things are not appropriate.

Devin Hutchison said:

We are limiting them on a scale for the whole US. Atheists have no "rules" they simply do not believe in a made up figure. Who would that affect? No one. Who would being a Christian effect? See: gay marriage laws, abortion, stem cell research, etc

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Nonsense! We radical, militant atheists have adopted the strawman erected for us, and now seek to actively restrict religion in all areas of life. We begin with the destruction of churches and changing all governmental references to "God", to "Flying Spaghetti Monster".

marshaul said:

Seriously, where do people come up with this nonsense?

I tell you what: you get to have your "God" in our government, when I get to have Flying Spaghetti Monster references anywhere I want. Deal?

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actually, you can probably reference "flying spaghetti monster" all you want. on your property or private property where you have permission, and even public property as long as you don't do any damage. just don't post any thing about Jesus

Sorcice said:

Atheism is to religion as not collecting stamps is a hobby. Atheism is literally the complete lack of belief. So no. Not a religion.

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religion is a belief system. if you are an Atheist then you believe there is no God, very unprovable. so therefore a religion

papa bear said:

religion is a belief system. if you are an Atheist then you believe there is no God, very unprovable. so therefore a religion

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Not believing in something doesn't mean you believe in the opposite. Not believing in something also does not require proof. I don't have to prove that unicorns don't exist, however if you assert that they do, then you are issued the burden of proof. I can't prove unicorns don't exist, it's impossible to do so. However I can state that there is no evidence of unicorns existing. Atheism is the lack of belief in a god or diety, not the belief that gods do not exist. I will bet money that if given undeniable, testable, provable evidence that one or more god(s) exist, every Atheist will change their stance. Such evidence has not been brought forth so far though which is why religion takes faith. Atheism does not require faith, because just like with unicorns I don't have to have faith that they don't exist, it's just a fact until evidence is given that supports otherwise.

ADobbs1989 said:

Actually it would resemble Secularism. Our government SHOULD be a Secular government, where the government does not recognize one belief system to be of greater value than another. I don't care what other people believe, as long as they do not try to pass laws or force me and/or my children to participate in their indoctrinations. Most of the "militant Atheists" as you call them, are people who do not tolerate tax money to go towards 10 commandment statues, or schools teaching their children creationism. Those two things are not appropriate.

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The post to which I was responding did not advocate a secular government. Is sought to squelch the free expression and practice of religion by individuals in the government. That would be a violation of their rights.

Some folks only seem to believe in Liberty only as long as that Liberty is practiced in an acceptable manner.

papa bear said:

actually, you can probably reference "flying spaghetti monster" all you want. on your property or private property where you have permission, and even public property as long as you don't do any damage. just don't post any thing about Jesus

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OK, so I expect to see that quarter in my previous post minted any day now.

I see Jesus everywhere I go (I live in Southwestern Virginia), and references to God in government abound. So don't give me any of that baloney about how we atheists try to infringe your ability to display your love of Jesus.

All these strawmen which have been created for atheists regarding "public displays of religion" are in fact the result of projection on the part of religionists.

In other words, you can attack strawmen all day, and I could win simply by responding "NO U!"

eye95 said:

The post to which I was responding did not advocate a secular government. Is sought to squelch the free expression and practice of religion by individuals in the government. That would be a violation of their rights.

Some folks only seem to believe in Liberty only as long as that Liberty is practiced in an acceptable manner.

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See, this right here. It's a complete strawman, and a projection to boot.

Rejected.

Or, I could just say: NO U!

Some atheists believe there isn't a god, and some don't believe that there is a god. True atheism is an absence of belief, not a belief in absence. But, as with those who stop smoking, when you stop believing, you like to think that you are now enlightened.

But the militant atheists you mention are those who believe that religion itself is dangerous or detrimental. For instance, militant atheists agree with Christians that radical, fundamentalist Islam is dangerous. We also agree with Muslims that fundamental, radical, evangelical Christianity is dangerous. That is about the religions, not the god or the fundamental beliefs, but is about how people live based on some bastardized religion.

ADobbs1989 said:

I will bet money that if given undeniable, testable, provable evidence that one or more god(s) exist, every Atheist will change their stance. Such evidence has not been brought forth so far though which is why religion takes faith.

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Have ya'll ever looked outside? or even at your self's? how can you not see a Creator in the complexity of nature or yourself? Is there any evidence that is undeniable, testable, or provable that the whole world evolved from one thing?

McLintock said:

Have ya'll ever looked outside? or even at your self's? how can you not see a Creator in the complexity of nature or yourself? Is there any evidence that is undeniable, testable, or provable that the whole world evolved from one thing?

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Chicken-or-egg.

God doesn't answer the creation question. It simply moves it one step back.

Who (or what) created God?

And if "God" doesn't need to have been created, then why does the universe need to have been created?

Or, if "God" is self-creating, than why couldn't the universe have been self-creating, instead?

McLintock said:

Have ya'll ever looked outside? or even at your self's? how can you not see a Creator in the complexity of nature or yourself? Is there any evidence that is undeniable, testable, or provable that the whole world evolved from one thing?

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I don't know about the one thing part, but yes evolution is testable, and has been proven. Complexity doesn't equal created, at least not to a point where it can be presented as fact. And honestly there are many things that are just made stupidly...like for instance if I created everything I wouldn't have created poop. Surely if you had the ability to do whatever you wanted you would have come up with a better way to get rid of waste. You see the beautiful and think "how could this not have been created" and I see the stupid, disgusting, and horrendous and think "If this was created, they did a poor job". God really is a "god of the gaps" and 2000 years ago there were a lot of gaps. A lot of them have been filled in and now a lot of the Bible can be proven as false, and I suspect in another 2000 years (if the human race survives that long) not only will more gaps have been filled, but there may not be any gaps left for him to inhabit.