Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Toy Gun Open Carry?

  1. #1
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    1,182

    Toy Gun Open Carry?

    Is there any law that I am not aware of that would prevent a non-student from peaceably carrying what would be a clearly fake toy gun on public school property?

    I ask because I'd REALLY like to see some action taken on what is becoming a RIDICULOUS intimidation of little boys and use of toy guns to demonize real guns. If it is unlawful to openly carry a TOY gun on public school property then there must be some action that can be taken against this absurdity. I would just LOVE to see a bunch of grown men, women and children open carrying Nerf dart guns with signs shaming local law enforcement for arresting 10 year olds for "brandishing" them! Good idea? Bad idea?

    This has simply gone WAY too far in my opinion.

    What is the point of the blaze orange tips on these TOY guns but to defuse any confusion as to whether or not a gun is real or fake?

    http://alexandriava.gov/police/info/....aspx?id=69364

  2. #2
    Regular Member crazydude6030's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Fairfax, va
    Posts
    512

    Re: Toy Gun Open Carry?

    Who are you kidding all you need to do is point a finger to get charged with that.

  3. #3
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    , ,
    Posts
    13,580
    Quote Originally Posted by crazydude6030 View Post
    Who are you kidding all you need to do is point a finger to get charged with that.
    I don't think he'd get charged but he would sure be raked over the coals on the site.

    I can think of better ways to spend my time. What's the point in doing something that will do nothing but plant a poor impression.

  4. #4
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Loudoun County - Dulles Airport, Virginia, USA
    Posts
    4,848
    18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
    B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.
    C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.
    Carry On.

    Ed

    VirginiaOpenCarry.Org (Coins, Shirts and Patches)
    - - - -
    For VA Open Carry Cards send a S.A.2S.E. to: Ed's OC cards, Box 16143, Wash DC 20041-6143 (they are free but some folks enclose a couple bucks too)

  5. #5
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    1,182
    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
    B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.
    C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.
    So one should be arrested for squirting people with a squirt gun if some twerp makes a slanderous case that they were "scared for their life"? At what point does discretion and reason come into play? And what then is the purpose of the orange tip on toy guns?

    But my point is that there have been almost a dozen of these cases in the past several weeks. Children with toy guns being arrested, expelled, and suspended. Just all of a sudden. I think it is detrimental to OUR movement to not pay it any attention.

  6. #6
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,628
    Quote Originally Posted by richarcm View Post
    So one should be arrested for squirting people with a squirt gun if some twerp makes a slanderous case that they were "scared for their life"? At what point does discretion and reason come into play? And what then is the purpose of the orange tip on toy guns?

    But my point is that there have been almost a dozen of these cases in the past several weeks. Children with toy guns being arrested, expelled, and suspended. Just all of a sudden. I think it is detrimental to OUR movement to not pay it any attention.
    Zero tolerence = zero common sense.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  7. #7
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    1,182
    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    Zero tolerence = zero common sense.
    Seems to me we have a BAD law on the books that CLEARLY doesn't make any rational sense.

  8. #8
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    Unknown
    Posts
    581

    Toy Gun Open Carry?

    I have a thirty round magazine for my "hand gun."

  9. #9
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    North Chesterfield VA
    Posts
    10,682
    If you, an adult, carry a toy gun onto school property you will not face any sanctions from the school - no suspension or expulsion, nothing entered in your PERMANENT RECORD to follow you through the rest of your life.

    But even if the toy gun you are carrying is instantly and obviously recognizable as a toy the odds of a non-consensual conversation with the police is very likely. If the call is not about some nut with a gun it will be about some nut.

    But to answer the OP's question, as far as I can see there is no actual law prohibiting doing so. The closest I can come is trespass on school/church property http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-128 which still requires someone in charge to tell you to leave and you then refuse to do so.

    Besides the physical, emotional, and possibly financial downsides of having to deal with the police, I just do not see that the planned activity would garner public support. A "demonstration" at the School Board, or during public comment if they have such, would IMHO be more appropriate and more likely to create a positive outcome both with the school authorities and with the general public.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  10. #10
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    1,182
    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    If you, an adult, carry a toy gun onto school property you will not face any sanctions from the school - no suspension or expulsion, nothing entered in your PERMANENT RECORD to follow you through the rest of your life.

    But even if the toy gun you are carrying is instantly and obviously recognizable as a toy the odds of a non-consensual conversation with the police is very likely. If the call is not about some nut with a gun it will be about some nut.

    But to answer the OP's question, as far as I can see there is no actual law prohibiting doing so. The closest I can come is trespass on school/church property http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-128 which still requires someone in charge to tell you to leave and you then refuse to do so.

    Besides the physical, emotional, and possibly financial downsides of having to deal with the police, I just do not see that the planned activity would garner public support. A "demonstration" at the School Board, or during public comment if they have such, would IMHO be more appropriate and more likely to create a positive outcome both with the school authorities and with the general public.

    stay safe.
    Its just as lawful, crazy and potentially cop inducing as open carrying a loaded gun walking into a public library or a grocery store I would imagine. Especially if the toy is clearly a Nerf dart gun or a Super Soaker or something bright neon green and orange. I would assume that the potential physical, emotional and possibly financial downsides are also very similar in open carrying a clearly real gun cocked and locked into a public library or grocery store.

    This ordeal reminds me of the abuse that was once going on with the lemonade stands and the chalkings. Cops harassing little kids for selling lemonade and using street chalk on the sidewalks. There were protests against both of those by mocking them and they both went viral, made the cops look incredibly stupid and the problem magically pretty much disappeared. In the case of those selling lemonade in DC the cops DID arrest them...which is clearly silly, but the lemonade peddlers were ultimately not found guilty of anything.

    I think it would be SO easy to mock this, make it public with how silly it all has become and change how something like this would morally pivot socially. Instead of it seeming reasonable to take away toy guns, suspend, expell and arrest (due to the climate) it would seem immoral to do such things especially to a little 8 year old or 10 year old.

    And if the point is that we can't determine if ANYTHING is a toy gun, even if painted ORANGE, then just ban them from the stores. If you can't play with them, point them at others without fear of ARREST....just tell the stores to stop selling them altogether. If this is what we accept as a society then just get rid of them. Tell Johnny to stop playing cops/robbers, stop playing with the squirt guns and dart guns and go play with something else. Because Johnny might "scare" someone and get arrested.

    If the problem is a toy problem, that I can agree with more, perhaps kids shouldn't have toys at school. I know I wasn't when I was at school. ALL toys would get taken away and given back later in the day. But nobody every got suspended, expelled or ARRESTED. And we actually made devices that shot stuff in class (paper balls, rubber bands, etc)!!!!

    But the REAL problem with this is the accelerated attempt to indoctrinate Johnny and his classmates by further associating negativity to anything that is a gun. I mean if a TOY gun gets Johnny ARRESTED surely a real gun is something Johnny and his classmates should NEVER EVER touch. And if the sight of a TOY gun is something that requires law enforcement attention then we must SURELY call them if we see someone in a public library carrying a REAL gun.

    This is all going to spiral out of control if not managed on our end. That is the point. When, if ever, does it become something that the gun rights community finds significant?
    Last edited by richarcm; 02-06-2013 at 06:50 AM.

  11. #11
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    White Oak Plantation
    Posts
    12,274
    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
    A. It shall be unlawful for any person topoint, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.
    B. Any police officer in the performance of his duty, in making an arrest under the provisions of this section, shall not be civilly liable in damages for injuries or death resulting to the person being arrested if he had reason to believe that the person being arrested was pointing, holding, or brandishing such firearm or air or gas operated weapon, or object that was similar in appearance, with intent to induce fear in the mind of another.
    C. For purposes of this section, the word "firearm" means any weapon that will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel single or multiple projectiles by the action of an explosion of a combustible material. The word "ammunition," as used herein, shall mean a cartridge, pellet, ball, missile or projectile adapted for use in a firearm.
    It appears that this law does not apply to toy "firearms." I could be misunderstanding the definition provided in the law.

    I am not a lawyer or trained in scholarly legal research.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  12. #12
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,628
    Quote Originally Posted by ed View Post
    18.2-282. Pointing, holding, or brandishing firearm, air or gas operated weapon or object similar in appearance; penalty.
    A. It shall be unlawful for any person to point, hold or brandish any firearm or any air or gas operated weapon or any object similar in appearance, whether capable of being fired or not, in such manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another or hold a firearm or any air or gas operated weapon in a public place in such a manner as to reasonably induce fear in the mind of another of being shot or injured. However, this section shall not apply to any person engaged in excusable or justifiable self-defense. Persons violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor or, if the violation occurs upon any public, private or religious elementary, middle or high school, including buildings and grounds or upon public property within 1,000 feet of such school property, he shall be guilty of a Class 6 felony.

    --snipped--
    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    It appears that this law does not apply to toy "firearms." I could be misunderstanding the definition provided in the law.

    I am not a lawyer or trained in scholarly legal research.
    It does - subject to judicial review.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

  13. #13
    Regular Member richarcm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    1,182
    Drudge is reporting yet ANOTHER of these harassments of boys being boys. When does this stop? The past couple of weeks children have been suspended, expelled or arrested for possessing Nerf dart guns, using their hands to gesture a gun, drawing guns, having guns as their desktop background, and now for throwing IMAGINARY "grenades"!!!!

    http://django.medianewsgroup.com/mob...aginary-weapon
    Last edited by richarcm; 02-06-2013 at 12:28 PM.

  14. #14
    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    North Chesterfield, Va.
    Posts
    34,628
    Quote Originally Posted by richarcm View Post
    Drudge is reporting yet ANOTHER of these harassments of boys being boys. When does this stop? The past couple of weeks children have been suspended, expelled or arrested for possessing Nerf dart guns, using their hands to gesture a gun, drawing guns, having guns as their desktop background, and now for throwing IMAGINARY "grenades"!!!!

    http://django.medianewsgroup.com/mob...aginary-weapon
    Now we have thought police - he was only pretending + no other children were envolved......even in his thoughts
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •