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Thread: AG issues opinion on carry in Glovebox/container

  1. #1
    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    AG issues opinion on carry in Glovebox/container

    http://edsfiles.us/letters/agglovebox.pdf

    Issues Presented
    You present several questions related to the possession and storage of firearms in vehicles by
    persons who may lawfully possess a fireatm but have not been issued a concealed weapons permit. You first ask whether a handgun can be loaded inside a vehicle and under what conditions. Your second inquiry concerns whether a handgun can be within the reach of a driver or a passenger inside a vehicle. You next ask whether a center console, glove compartment or any other "container or compartment must be locked to constitute a "secured container or compartment" Finally, you ask whether an individual can keep a firearm in their vehicle at their place of employment even if there is a company policy or signage stating it is not allowed.


    Response1
    It is my opinion that, provided the handgun is properly secured in a container or compartment
    within the vehicle, persons who may lawfully possess a firerum but have not been issued a concealed weapons permit may possess, in a vehicle, a handgun that is loaded and the handgun may remain within reach of a driver or passenger under such conditions. It further is my opinion that, for a handgun to be "secured in a container or compartment," such storage tool need not be locked. Finally, it is my opinion that an individual may not keep a firearm stored in his vehicle at a place of employment if there is a company policy or signage prohibiting firearms on the premises.
    Last edited by ed; 02-07-2013 at 12:20 AM.
    Carry On.

    Ed

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator ed's Avatar
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    ELIAS P. DOULGERAKIS vs VA

    http://edsfiles.us/letters/caseglovebox.pdf

    <snip>
    The facts are not in dispute. On October 28, 2011, Officer L.C. Jones of the Henrico County Police Department stopped appellant for a traffic violation. Officer Jones asked appellant if he had anything in his glove box to cause him concern. Appellant responded that he had a handgun in the glove compartment. The glove box was closed and latched, but not locked. Officer Jones removed the handgun and charged appellant with carrying a concealed weapon without a permit. <snip>
    Carry On.

    Ed

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  3. #3
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    First, if ever asked the same question under the same circumstances, my answer will absolutely be simply, "No sir." I can't seem to recall any accounts of a holstered handgun, stored in a latched glove box, ever jumping out of its holster, bursting through the glove box door, and spontaneously shooting at people. It is 100% true that any handgun secured in my glove box need be no concern for a police officer.

    To the point, this is a very important opinion, and it's PUBLISHED too! This should once and for all clear up any doubts about keeping a handgun in the glove box, without a CHP. Any opinions on whether it helps with the same situation (handgun secured in glove box) while driving on school property?

    The most interesting point to me was the fact that the court specifically went to the legislative intent, citing the Governor's recommendation to change "locked" to "secured", which was subsequently adopted by the General Assembly in the final version. That was critical to the right conclusion by the court.

    Thank you very much for posting this!

    The officer and the local prosecutor need to be looking for new jobs.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    ?

    The most interesting point to me was the fact that the court specifically went to the legislative intent, citing the Governor's recommendation to change "locked" to "secured", which was subsequently adopted by the General Assembly in the final version. That was critical to the right conclusion by the court.

    Thank you very much for posting this!

    The officer and the local prosecutor need to be looking for new jobs.

    TFred
    I mentioned this a long time ago TFred. Va is a weak legislative intent state but in some cases, it's possible t go back and show what they didn't mean.
    This appears to be one of those cases.

    Need I remind you that The Sutherland Decision was reversed because Judge Wallace in Henrico decided he didn't care for it.

    Henrico will always be anti gun. Good to see them slapped!

    Yes...thanks for posting this Ed. This needs to be included in the carry in the car without a CHP sticky.
    Last edited by peter nap; 02-07-2013 at 04:14 AM.

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    Regular Member mtbinva's Avatar
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    Great post! I usually keep a couple of copies of the AG’s opinion in my vehicle for just that reason. I hope that it offers some form of “protection” in re my possession in my vehicle. Otherwise, I am at the discretion of the LEO’s interpretation of the statute. I have no doubt that a large percentage of Leo’s would actually arrest/write the citation and take possession of the weapon.

    Although I would hope since there may have already been a few instances of this and the courts have adjudicated a few of these cases that LE’s throughout the Commonwealth have been educated or otherwise briefed on that statute.

    Just my $0.02
    Chance favors only the prepared mind.

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mtbinva View Post
    Great post! I usually keep a couple of copies of the AG’s opinion in my vehicle for just that reason. I hope that it offers some form of “protection” in re my possession in my vehicle. Otherwise, I am at the discretion of the LEO’s interpretation of the statute. I have no doubt that a large percentage of Leo’s would actually arrest/write the citation and take possession of the weapon.

    Although I would hope since there may have already been a few instances of this and the courts have adjudicated a few of these cases that LE’s throughout the Commonwealth have been educated or otherwise briefed on that statute.

    Just my $0.02
    Grasshopper -

    I have some beautiful oceanfront property in Arizona that I will let you buy at a specially reduced price. If you act now, you can snap up the parcel that connects one side of the bay to the other via a spectacular suspension bridge.

    LEOs are generally unwilling to interrupt whatever it is they are doing to read some AG opinion or court ruling. Their attitude while on the street seems to be "If I need to know about it it was covered in training or I can look at it after I get your ticket written/you booked into jail."

    About the only thing they may read (maybe) before going too far is Dan Hawes' (OCDO member User) letter, which you can find at http://www.vagunlawyer.com/downloads.html . Print it out. Fill it in. make several copies and laminate them. Make a few reduced-size (but still big enough to read without a magnifying glass) copies and laminate them. Keep a few in your car, and a few in your wallet. Use them.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  7. #7
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Grasshopper -

    I have some beautiful oceanfront property in Arizona that I will let you buy at a specially reduced price. If you act now, you can snap up the parcel that connects one side of the bay to the other via a spectacular suspension bridge.

    LEOs are generally unwilling to interrupt whatever it is they are doing to read some AG opinion or court ruling. Their attitude while on the street seems to be "If I need to know about it it was covered in training or I can look at it after I get your ticket written/you booked into jail."

    About the only thing they may read (maybe) before going too far is Dan Hawes' (OCDO member User) letter, which you can find at http://www.vagunlawyer.com/downloads.html . Print it out. Fill it in. make several copies and laminate them. Make a few reduced-size (but still big enough to read without a magnifying glass) copies and laminate them. Keep a few in your car, and a few in your wallet. Use them.

    stay safe.
    AMEN!

    The only reason they will read it, is because you do your part. If he won't read it, read it to him then when he continues to play word games....say "Read the damn letter!" Then shut up.
    I say he, but usually female cops are nastier than the men.
    Last edited by peter nap; 02-07-2013 at 10:28 AM.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    AMEN!

    The only reason they will read it, is because you do your part. If he won't read it, read it to him then when he continues to play word games....say "Read the damn letter!" Then shut up.
    I say he, but usually female cops are nastier than the men.
    And remember to bring your digital voice recorder with you and have it turned on.

    Playing the "broken record" usually gets a response from LEOs very quickly. Usually one their supervisors and legal folks would have preferred not to be listening to.

    As a member of the listening audience it is hilarious, but as one of the stars of the show it can at times be quite frightening. The trick is to remember to breathe and think of England. Hey! That's the advice your grandparents (with some of you youngsters it was probably your great grandparents) were given for getting through an unpleasant experience. If it worked for them it should work for you.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

    "No matter how much contempt you have for the media in all this, you don't have enough"
    ----Allahpundit

  9. #9
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Send me an email and I'll send you my opinion. It's a "canned memo" that I've used successfully in several cases. The gist of it is that I've gone through the Code and case decisions with a fine toothed comb and found three meanings of the word, "secured". It can mean "obtained", as in, "I went to the closet and secured an umbrella."; it can mean, "collateralized", as in, "My home loan was secured by a deed of trust"; and it can mean "closed in a positive way", as in, "The gate in the chain-link fence was secured with a rope flung over the top post." This latter definition can include things that are locked, so that which is "locked" is also "secured", but not all things that are "secured" are necessarily "locked". The memo contains cites to authority as to all that.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    AMEN!

    The only reason they will read it, is because you do your part. If he won't read it, read it to him then when he continues to play word games....say "Read the damn letter!" Then shut up.
    ...
    But don't say, "damn". If you do, they can charge you with the misdemeanor crime called, "curse and abuse".
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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