Traffic Stop Scenario

Munkey Butt said:

So a while back I asked the question "Do you tell LEO your armed in a traffic stop". Now a new question arises. This is somewhat of a multi-part question.

So say you're stopped by an LEO, and for argument sake you are OC in a holster (w/ CPL) and you do not announce you're armed. Now somewhere during the stop, LEO asks if there are any weapons or firearms in the car.

What would your response be?

Now say that you respond with a "Yes, firearm is holstered on my hip." I would hope that the LEO would leave it at that.

NOTE- this is the main question I am asking.

If said LEO is pushes the issue and asks for you to unholster your firearm and hand it over.

What is your response/ action?

This is somewhat of an experiance i had, to save hassle I wish to keep the details to myself. Id just like to know what I am legally obligated to do. On the other hand I would like to what my rights are to retain my weapon.

Someone on here said something like "the safest place for my weapon is in my holster not handled by anyone".

Anyways folks thanks in advance for all your input.

Click to expand...

If you are stopped for something like a traffic stop, (except for DWI), you give the officer you DL, insurance card and registration, they go back to their cruser, look up your information, and if they care (it takes a specific quiry) they will know you have a CPL. Therefore, there is no real need to ask if you are armed.

Under same situation, if they do ask, the answer is: "I have nothing illegal"...I don't care if you are open carry like I normally am, or deep concealed. You do not want them to have anything they could call "reasonable suspician", ever.

They must have reasonable suspician that you have committed, or are committing a CRIME before they can legally search your person or your vehicle. the same goes for siezing your weapon "for officer safety".

In over 40 years I have never been asked to surrender my carry, never been asked for my CPL, and never been asked if I was armed (the last would be silly as they can normally see my carry on my hip. I OC, I do not like CC.

Yes, I was the one that said: "my pistol, in it's holster, is a danger to no-one, out of it's holster it is a danger to everyone within range". Do not submit to a search without a warrent, do not submit to being disarmed, do not fight back physically, ask for a supervisor.

As has been stated by other posters, I am not stopped very often. I work very hard at abiding by the traffic laws. I do occationally drive a bit fast when I am close to home, but then up here where I live, you may see a deputy once a year,,,,or less, and when they come up here, they are usually looking for someone. When I am on the state highway, I set my cruise control to the speed limit and enjoy my trip.

Best policy is to drive within the law, make sure your car is well maintained (no lamps out, good brakes) and just not get stopped in the first place. Stay out of trouble spots if possible, and go about your business as a level headed, calm, law abiding citizen.

Munkey Butt said:

So a while back I asked the question "Do you tell LEO your armed in a traffic stop". Now a new question arises. This is somewhat of a multi-part question.

So say you're stopped by an LEO, and for argument sake you are OC in a holster (w/ CPL) and you do not announce you're armed. Now somewhere during the stop, LEO asks if there are any weapons or firearms in the car.

What would your response be?

Now say that you respond with a "Yes, firearm is holstered on my hip." I would hope that the LEO would leave it at that.

NOTE- this is the main question I am asking.

If said LEO is pushes the issue and asks for you to unholster your firearm and hand it over.

What is your response/ action?

This is somewhat of an experiance i had, to save hassle I wish to keep the details to myself. Id just like to know what I am legally obligated to do. On the other hand I would like to what my rights are to retain my weapon.

Someone on here said something like "the safest place for my weapon is in my holster not handled by anyone".

Anyways folks thanks in advance for all your input.

Click to expand...

I have been pulled over about a dozen times since I started driving. (28 years), I have been armed each and every time. And never once has the officer raised the question.

I start standing for my rights immediately. I roll my window down just enough to hand over my DL, registration and insurance. I have been asked to roll it down farther and I simply say no thank you or it's down far enough. At this point they know that I am standing for my rights. If asked any question I simply refuse to answer. They don't like it and they probably will give you the ticket. Although I don't always get a ticket, sometime just a reminder to slow down. Tickets can be beat in court...I have had all of my tickets dismissed without an attorney.

Only once was my firearm an issue, I was pulled over by WSP on I-5. My firearm had been poking me, so I took it off and had it sitting on the passenger seat under a towel. The officer approached on the passenger side of the car. I was unsure whether he could see it poking out or not so I simply mentioned that he may see my Sig under the orange towel. His response: "Do you always carry when you drive?" "Yes sir" "Good deal, it's crazy out here. Don't touch it and I won't touch mine."

hermannr said:

WA Article 1 Section 7 is stronger than teh US 4Th. What a PA supreme court may say does not fly here. And even though the US supreme court has said roadblock DWI stops (where they stop everyone) are legal, WA State does not allow any random stop without suspician,,,and that include roadblock stops.

Click to expand...

Pennsylvania vs Mimms was eventually taken to the SCOTUS and was specifically about a traffic stop and subsequent search. Initially, the PA Supremes had it correct, but the SCOTUS decided to allow the intrusion on the 4th Amendment.

I think I have to agree...keep responses to the absolute minimum, present DL, registration and insurance for the officer, and refer additional questions to your attorney.

Are you armed?/Do you have any weapons? Questions along those lines....

Can you cite any requirement for me to answer those questions?
What would the answering of those questions have anything to do with this traffic stop?

....
In short never, answer the question. Followed up with, "Am I free to leave now?"

hermannr said:

WA Article 1 Section 7 is stronger than teh US 4Th. What a PA supreme court may say does not fly here. And even though the US supreme court has said roadblock DWI stops (where they stop everyone) are legal, WA State does not allow any random stop without suspician,,,and that include roadblock stops.

Click to expand...

I know. But, where is the Washington state case, if any, that prohibits or authorizes the car search and gun seizure? That was the OP's question.

hermannr said:

If you are stopped for something like a traffic stop, (except for DWI), you give the officer you DL, insurance card and registration, they go back to their cruser, look up your information, and if they care (it takes a specific quiry) they will know you have a CPL. Therefore, there is no real need to ask if you are armed.

Under same situation, if they do ask, the answer is: "I have nothing illegal"...I don't care if you are open carry like I normally am, or deep concealed. You do not want them to have anything they could call "reasonable suspician", ever.

They must have reasonable suspician that you have committed, or are committing a CRIME before they can legally search your person or your vehicle. the same goes for siezing your weapon "for officer safety".

In over 40 years I have never been asked to surrender my carry, never been asked for my CPL, and never been asked if I was armed (the last would be silly as they can normally see my carry on my hip. I OC, I do not like CC.

Yes, I was the one that said: "my pistol, in it's holster, is a danger to no-one, out of it's holster it is a danger to everyone within range". Do not submit to a search without a warrent, do not submit to being disarmed, do not fight back physically, ask for a supervisor.

As has been stated by other posters, I am not stopped very often. I work very hard at abiding by the traffic laws. I do occationally drive a bit fast when I am close to home, but then up here where I live, you may see a deputy once a year,,,,or less, and when they come up here, they are usually looking for someone. When I am on the state highway, I set my cruise control to the speed limit and enjoy my trip.

Best policy is to drive within the law, make sure your car is well maintained (no lamps out, good brakes) and just not get stopped in the first place. Stay out of trouble spots if possible, and go about your business as a level headed, calm, law abiding citizen.

Click to expand...

Cite, please, for the red text.

Totally separately, I'm not convinced telling the officer, "I have nothing illegal" is the best course of action. Remember the comments of Prof. Duane in his video lecture about talking to police--even the truthful statements of an innocent witness can be used against him. While its less likely to be a bad cop at your car door, the real problem is that the driver may not find out for sure until after it is too late.

This is just the information I was looking for, but there is something I have not seen. I would assume that a cpl would have to be handed over if LEO asked or "demanded" it correct. So what would stop them from demanding your firearm?

Munkey Butt said:

This is just the information I was looking for, but there is something I have not seen. I would assume that a cpl would have to be handed over if LEO asked or "demanded" it correct. So what would stop them from demanding your firearm?

Click to expand...

Yes you must display your CPL upon demand by any Cop.

Nothing would stop them from temporarily seizing your firearm at that moment in time.

Jeff Hayes said:

Yes you must display your CPL upon demand by any Cop.

Nothing would stop them from temporarily seizing your firearm at that moment in time.

Click to expand...

Cite, please.

Citizen said:

Cite, please.

Click to expand...

RCW 9.41.050
Carrying firearms.

(1)(a) Except in the person's place of abode or fixed place of business, a person shall not carry a pistol concealed on his or her person without a license to carry a concealed pistol.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so. Any violation of this subsection (1)(b) shall be a class 1 civil infraction under chapter 7.80 RCW and shall be punished accordingly pursuant to chapter 7.80 RCW and the infraction rules for courts of limited jurisdiction.

(2)(a) A person shall not carry or place a loaded pistol in any vehicle unless the person has a license to carry a concealed pistol and: (i) The pistol is on the licensee's person, (ii) the licensee is within the vehicle at all times that the pistol is there, or (iii) the licensee is away from the vehicle and the pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(3)(a) A person at least eighteen years of age who is in possession of an unloaded pistol shall not leave the unloaded pistol in a vehicle unless the unloaded pistol is locked within the vehicle and concealed from view from outside the vehicle.

(b) A violation of this subsection is a misdemeanor.

(4) Nothing in this section permits the possession of firearms illegal to possess under state or federal law.




I wonder if you have a gun in your trunk lets say transporting it. It's unloaded and you are not required in that situation to have a CPL. Would you still have to show it? I think you could argue no.

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

this refers to the CPL does it not? also when does the law require you to?

Citizen said:

Cite, please.

Click to expand...

Washington State RCW 9.41.050 b.

OOPs SeattleWingsFan beat me to it.

Citizen said:

Cite, please.

Click to expand...

One clarification, since we are in the Washington State Forum I am only referring to Washington State law when I sai you must display your CPL to any Cop. Other states have different laws, know them before you go there.

Thanks for the cites, fellas. They help new readers and lurkers.

Still need that cite from hermanrr, though. The one I requested in post #26. Guess we'll have to wait until he checks in again.

Nightwing said:

(b) Every licensee shall have his or her concealed pistol license in his or her immediate possession at all times that he or she is required by this section to have a concealed pistol license and shall display the same upon demand to any police officer or to any other person when and if required by law to do so.

this refers to the CPL does it not? also when does the law require you to?

Click to expand...

I have long had a problem with this statue for this reason. It says you have to do it when and if required by the law to do so, but there is no law that requires you to do so, so as far as I can tell you are never required to do so. Looks like poor wording that needs to be corrected to me.

arentol said:

I have long had a problem with this statue for this reason. It says you have to do it when and if required by the law to do so, but there is no law that requires you to do so, so as far as I can tell you are never required to do so. Looks like poor wording that needs to be corrected to me.

Click to expand...

Everything after the or belongs to one long clause. The part about a cop demand stands by itself in front of the or.

Munkey Butt said:

...

NOTE- this is the main question I am asking.

If said LEO is pushes the issue and asks for you to unholster your firearm and hand it over.

What is your response/ action?

This is somewhat of an experiance i had, to save hassle I wish to keep the details to myself. Id just like to know what I am legally obligated to do. On the other hand I would like to what my rights are to retain my weapon.

Someone on here said something like "the safest place for my weapon is in my holster not handled by anyone".

Anyways folks thanks in advance for all your input.

Click to expand...

If you are pulled over for a traffic infraction the officer has no right to disarm you and no requirement to pull you out of your vehicle. If I were in the same situation and the officer isn't having me step out of the vehicle yet wanted to disarm me I would respectfully decline and request he get a supervisor out. Unless he has RAS that a crime has been committed that would permit him to search my person or the vehicle he has no right to take the firearm.

Citizen said:

Everything after the or belongs to one long clause. The part about a cop demand stands by itself in front of the or.

Click to expand...

That is the way I read it as well.

arentol said:

I have long had a problem with this statue for this reason. It says you have to do it when and if required by the law to do so, but there is no law that requires you to do so, so as far as I can tell you are never required to do so. Looks like poor wording that needs to be corrected to me.

Click to expand...

Handgun purchases require a 5 day waiting period.

If you wish to have that period waived then you are required to show it to the licensed dealer.

[h=2]RCW 9.41.090[/h][h=1]Dealer deliveries regulated — Hold on delivery.[/h]

(1) In addition to the other requirements of this chapter, no dealer may deliver a pistol to the purchaser thereof until:

(a) The purchaser produces a valid concealed pistol license and the dealer has recorded the purchaser's name, license number, and issuing agency, such record to be made in triplicate and processed as provided in subsection (5) of this section. For purposes of this subsection (1)(a), a "valid concealed pistol license" does not include a temporary emergency license, and does not include any license issued before July 1, 1996, unless the issuing agency conducted a records search for disqualifying crimes under RCW 9.41.070 at the time of issuance;

(b) The dealer is notified in writing by the chief of police or the sheriff of the jurisdiction in which the purchaser resides that the purchaser is eligible to possess a pistol under RCW 9.41.040 and that the application to purchase is approved by the chief of police or sheriff; or

(c) Five business days, meaning days on which state offices are open, have elapsed from the time of receipt of the application for the purchase thereof as provided herein by the chief of police or sheriff designated in subsection (5) of this section, and, when delivered, the pistol shall be securely wrapped and shall be unloaded. However, if the purchaser does not have a valid permanent Washington driver's license or state identification card or has not been a resident of the state for the previous consecutive ninety days, the waiting period under this subsection (1)(c) shall be up to sixty days.

(2)(a) Except as provided in (b) of this subsection, in determining whether the purchaser meets the requirements of RCW 9.41.040, the chief of police or sheriff, or the designee of either, shall check with the national crime information center, the Washington state patrol electronic database, the department of social and health services electronic database, and with other agencies or resources as appropriate, to determine whether the applicant is ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a firearm.

(b) Once the system is established, a dealer shall use the state system and national instant criminal background check system, provided for by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act (18 U.S.C. Sec. 921 et seq.), to make criminal background checks of applicants to purchase firearms. However, a chief of police or sheriff, or a designee of either, shall continue to check the department of social and health services' electronic database and with other agencies or resources as appropriate, to determine whether applicants are ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a firearm.

(3) In any case under subsection (1)(c) of this section where the applicant has an outstanding warrant for his or her arrest from any court of competent jurisdiction for a felony or misdemeanor, the dealer shall hold the delivery of the pistol until the warrant for arrest is served and satisfied by appropriate court appearance. The local jurisdiction for purposes of the sale shall confirm the existence of outstanding warrants within seventy-two hours after notification of the application to purchase a pistol is received. The local jurisdiction shall also immediately confirm the satisfaction of the warrant on request of the dealer so that the hold may be released if the warrant was for an offense other than an offense making a person ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a pistol.

(4) In any case where the chief or sheriff of the local jurisdiction has reasonable grounds based on the following circumstances: (a) Open criminal charges, (b) pending criminal proceedings, (c) pending commitment proceedings, (d) an outstanding warrant for an offense making a person ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a pistol, or (e) an arrest for an offense making a person ineligible under RCW 9.41.040 to possess a pistol, if the records of disposition have not yet been reported or entered sufficiently to determine eligibility to purchase a pistol, the local jurisdiction may hold the sale and delivery of the pistol beyond five days up to thirty days in order to confirm existing records in this state or elsewhere. After thirty days, the hold will be lifted unless an extension of the thirty days is approved by a local district court or municipal court for good cause shown. A dealer shall be notified of each hold placed on the sale by local law enforcement and of any application to the court for additional hold period to confirm records or confirm the identity of the applicant.

(5) At the time of applying for the purchase of a pistol, the purchaser shall sign in triplicate and deliver to the dealer an application containing his or her full name, residential address, date and place of birth, race, and gender; the date and hour of the application; the applicant's driver's license number or state identification card number; a description of the pistol including the make, model, caliber and manufacturer's number if available at the time of applying for the purchase of a pistol. If the manufacturer's number is not available, the application may be processed, but delivery of the pistol to the purchaser may not occur unless the manufacturer's number is recorded on the application by the dealer and transmitted to the chief of police of the municipality or the sheriff of the county in which the purchaser resides; and a statement that the purchaser is eligible to possess a pistol under RCW 9.41.040.

Click to expand...

acmariner99 said:

don't you think it is safer for all parties where it is?" - I have no idea how well that would go over though.

Click to expand...

The downside with this is that per officer mentality the only way they are safe in this world is if they have all the guns and everyone else has nothing. If the officer wants to disarm you he will and he will use the excuse of "officer safety". They don't always do it, but it is done.