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A note on gun control and police

DDoutel

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Apr 20, 2011
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ummm...

I have met lucky face to face and I have spoken to him. He is a stand up officer, and I probably should have the least positive view of police officers on this forum.

Rich; the LEAST positive view?? Really?? :p :lol:
 

MKEgal

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Thank you for your sensible attitude, luckyykid. :cool:
It's reassuring to hear that the dog & pony show put on for the press by the top brass is usually only their opinion, not that of the people doing the work.

In my city*, though, there are plenty of boots-on-the-street officers who act like they agree with the chief...
He (in)famously said in a newspaper interview:
"My message to my troops is if you see anybody carrying a gun on the streets of Milwaukee, we'll put them on the ground, take the gun away and then decide whether you have a right to carry it."
:uhoh: :mad: :shocker:

* Milwaukee, WI [MKE]

Though at 2am when officers finally showed up in response to my burglary call a couple summers ago (my house & the one next door), the guy who came to work with me looked at my hip, said "is that a pistol?", and when I answered 'yes', said "oh. Just checking" & we went on with the paperwork.
I expected at least a little good-natured ribbing back & forth about brand & caliber. :rolleyes:

And our Sheriff is generally much more reasonable. He even spoke at the statehouse in favor of our concealed carry law, when it was in the public comment stage. That caused some gaping jaws among the assembled citizens. :D
 
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MKEgal

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Rich B said:
I probably should have the least positive view of police officers on this forum.
We should get a thread going in the social lounge to compare horror stories among the various people who have had bad experiences.
Problem is, it'd probably degenerate into bashing & be either locked or removed.
 

Riverdance

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Aug 26, 2006
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89
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Virginia
Well said, luckyykid, and my experiences with police tells me the same. Vast majority of rank and file cops stand behind citizen rights; chiefs are sometimes (but not always) bureaucrats, political appointees and hacks who'll sell us out and stand behind Obama. Even among those who ever WERE real cops, a portion forgot where they came from. Sheriffs on the other hand, are elected and accountable to the people. But the mix is true among all professions, whether shoe cobbler, cop, candlestick maker or taxi driver. Most are good, honest, ethical and principled. The few bad apples give the rest a bad name.
 
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LESGTINCT

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Aug 24, 2012
Messages
127
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Connecticut
Good Lord Almighty I don't even know what to say. While being somewhat cryptic, I believe i made it pretty clear where I stand, and where most other cops stand.

I CAN'T flat out state anything, because when you become a cop you LOSE your freedom of speech. So I play it safe.

Everyone else except davidmcbeth seemed to be able to figure it out...


Unfortunately, there are people on this site that will attack you just because they see you are a LEO. Not so much on the Connecticut Forum but on other state forums I can't say anything without one person attacking me, without being provoked, somehow.:banghead:
 

Citizen

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Fairfax Co., VA
I just wanted to put it out there that the media is perpetuating what I believe is a myth regarding the general police position/opinion on gun control.

For those here who don't know, I'm a cop in a high crime city in CT, and I deal with gun violence on a pretty regular basis. I for one do not support any further gun legislation, and while I can't speak for all officers, I can tell you that most cops that I have spoken with on this issue stand against new legislation just as much as the members here do. Meanwhile, Obama addresses gun control against a backdrop of police officers giving the impression that we are all anti-gun, and that could not be further from the truth. While I'm sure that there are some officers who are liberal minded and anti-gun, I'm convinced that is nowhere near the majority opinion.

There are several police chief associations who are speaking out in favor of gun control and passing it off as majority opinion. The thing is, police chiefs are nothing less than politicians themselves and do not represent the "rank and file" opinion. You'll notice that in the media, there are many sheriffs who have come out in opposition to gun control, but they are a different breed than the mayor-appointed chiefs.

The following are a few articles I found from various police publications opposing gun control. I believe this is the majority opinion among police.

http://www.officer.com/blog/10858047/mass-attacks-gun-control

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/articles/2012/12/close-your-eyes.aspx

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/312483/gun-control-and-police-robert-verbruggen

And for those who have asked a cop they just came across whether or not they would follow an order to go door-to-door and confiscate guns, I would not expect that they would give you an honest answer. I know I wouldn't tell a total stranger that I would disobey a direct order from the command staff, even if that's exactly what I would do.

So to summarize, don't beat up on the cops too much, because most of us are on your side on this issue.

While the OPer may be professing opposition to more gun control, I am suspicious.

The very first thing that jumped out at me was his use of the anti-gunner term gun violence.

There is just no way a modern cop cannot know about the huge anti-rights problems in the policing industry. That or the modern cop does not consider them problems. I am unmoved by a cop who does not support more gun control--especially in a state like CT. There is a galactic span between not supporting more anti-self-defense laws, and actively working to change those already on the books. So, some opposition to more anti-self-defense laws, while not a peep about the rest of the spectrum of anti-rights behavior in the modern police industry is unmoving. Where was this crowd and their objections back when the current laws were about to be more? Where has this crowd been over the last five and ten years demanding a roll-back of the laws already on the books?

The OP has a pleasant sound. But, so did the Sirens. I am unimpressed. The cops and associations who profess opposition to more anti-self-defense laws have had years and years to eliminate the Blue Wall of Silence and everything it hides. Where were their press releases and open letters for that?
 
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davidmcbeth

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Where was this crowd and their objections back when the current laws were about to be more? Where has this crowd been over the last five and ten years demanding a roll-back of the laws already on the books?

Oh, didn't you hear? Cops lose their freedom of speech when they join the PD. Just nonsnese. In all the testimony provided to the taskforce .. zero cops profess their pro-2nd amendment position.

I have to go by the record ...
 

LESGTINCT

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Oh, didn't you hear? Cops lose their freedom of speech when they join the PD. Just nonsnese. In all the testimony provided to the taskforce .. zero cops profess their pro-2nd amendment position.

I have to go by the record ...

Zero? So you have spoken to all LEO's? That's a pretty all inclusive statement.
 

davidmcbeth

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Zero? So you have spoken to all LEO's? That's a pretty all inclusive statement.

Talking about testimony given to task force ... its a finite amount (about 2000 entries) ... if you saw one opposing gun control from a cop then please tell me who and I'll look for it.

But I have read all the testimony and have found none ... (none = zero) Hope this expounds upon my last post...

http://www.cga.ct.gov/ASaferConnecticut/
 
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motoxmann

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Middletown, CT
David, I read maybe 1/4 of the testimonies, and I recall reading at least 3 pro-2A ones from leo's.
I also personally saw luckyykid stand up and speak his strong pro-2a opinion to legislators in a room ~half occupied by devoted anti's at a seperate meeting. the reaction was somewhat priceless, in that he was one of the only pro-2a people the anti's actually shutup and listened to and spoke no opposition or argument to. even the legislators expressed different facial expressions to him than to the other pro-2a people that spoke. seeing him speak in that meeting is proof enough to me that his words are genuine, both there and here on the forum
 
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davidmcbeth

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David, I read maybe 1/4 of the testimonies, and I recall reading at least 3 pro-2A ones from leo's.
I also personally saw luckyykid stand up and speak his strong pro-2a opinion to legislators in a room ~half occupied by devoted anti's at a seperate meeting. the reaction was somewhat priceless, in that he was one of the only pro-2a people the anti's actually shutup and listened to and spoke no opposition or argument to. even the legislators expressed different facial expressions to him than to the other pro-2a people that spoke. seeing him speak in that meeting is proof enough to me that his words are genuine, both there and here on the forum



I re-looked at the testimony and did find a single active policeman.... but was his testimony so pro-gun??....
Kevin did a good job too...but did not discuss 2nd amendment issues but his time was limited ... and he indicates that he would consider people who don't follow the law to be criminals ... so I would conclude he would arrest people (although he himself would not arrest himself and he stated he would not follow the law...not that I think anyone should be arrested but it shows that even with this positive testimony he considers himself different than others)....so was his testimony pro-gun for himself and not others? Its up to the viewer to decide.


Including:

Kevin Fleming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WCnBFoiAQ0 for his testimony


I'm sure that he is still part of the police dept. ... it appears as cops did not lose their 1st amendment freedom of speech ... go figure
 

WalkingWolf

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Well that is the first time I have seen his testimony. I was for him up until he started spouting more useless laws to infringe on people scared of heights or spiders(mental health). We don't need people like that testifying against us. He just switches infringements that suit HIS purpose.
 

Rich B

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Well that is the first time I have seen his testimony. I was for him up until he started spouting more useless laws to infringe on people scared of heights or spiders(mental health). We don't need people like that testifying against us. He just switches infringements that suit HIS purpose.

The linked testimony is not the OP.
 

davidmcbeth

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No one has pointed out any other cop testifying ... and I like that Kevin talking about how all his cop buddies are not going to follow the law either ...

Priceless.
 

luckyykid

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The very first thing that jumped out at me was his use of the anti-gunner term gun violence.


OK, I know we're big on terminology, but I don't know any other way to state that I see a lot of people get shot. I see a lot of drive by shootings where someone may or may not be shot, but the house and surrounding vehicles are riddled with bullets. I go to a lot of "shots fired" calls, and I pick up a lot of shell casings in the middle of the street. All of which (obviously) is illegal gun use, and could be described as "violence." If you have a better way to describe this in a shorter term other than "gun violence", let me know.

There is just no way a modern cop cannot know about the huge anti-rights problems in the policing industry.

I can't say I agree with this. I don't believe the majority of cops know they are violating peoples rights, and choose to disregard them. In regards to gun rights as associated with Terry stops/MWAG calls, most cops are just uneducated, which I blame police academies for. Cops only really know what they are taught. The academies beat into police "GUNS BAD GUNS BAD THEY KILL PEOPLE!!", and that's how we come out programed. This forum, as well as follow up research with an attorney and related case law, re-educated me, and now I try to pass that on to my fellow LEOs. But until I found this forum, I had no idea. See this thread for my whole education process, as well as my initial understanding/beliefs. http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/showthread.php?105543-Police-cant-require-proof-of-permit-of-OCer

That or the modern cop does not consider them problems. I am unmoved by a cop who does not support more gun control--especially in a state like CT. There is a galactic span between not supporting more anti-self-defense laws, and actively working to change those already on the books. So, some opposition to more anti-self-defense laws, while not a peep about the rest of the spectrum of anti-rights behavior in the modern police industry is unmoving. Where was this crowd and their objections back when the current laws were about to be more? Where has this crowd been over the last five and ten years demanding a roll-back of the laws already on the books?

I can't answer this one because I have only just gotten involved recently. But Rich B and motoxmann can attest that I am now actively becoming involved in public hearings, I have submitted testimony, and as recently becoming a Field Training Officer, I am passing on the information/understanding I have acquired here to my rookies. I am doing my part.
 

davidmcbeth

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In regards to gun rights as associated with Terry stops/MWAG calls, most cops are just uneducated, which I blame police academies for. Cops only really know what they are taught. The academies beat into police "GUNS BAD GUNS BAD THEY KILL PEOPLE!!", and that's how we come out programed. .


Most cops have HS diplomas and that's about it ... because that's all that's required..not their fault for that.

And if the academies are teaching this anti-gun mantra then this needs to be addressed. Hummm..I wonder if the records used in the academies are public records....
 
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