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You poor ba$terds

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina

Not everybody can or want to move. I wonder in some of the conservative counties if the prosecutors don't prosecute cases of law abiding citizens exercising their rights. I worked in Illinois for some time, and yes we as police ignored the conceal carry laws for decent people, but then that was many moons ago. The conceal carry statutes were also ignored here until the conceal carry permission law was passed. Things have changed a lot for police all over the country though. Less of them are receptive to the community now, and more jack booted to the government.
 

ConditionThree

State Pioneer
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,231
Location
Shasta County, California, USA

None of our objectives can be advanced by a retreat to territories not in dispute.

The front lines of the war over the second amendment are New York, California, Maryland, Illinois, and New Jersey. What ever victory we have will be won here... not in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Virginia, New Hampshire, or Vermont. Those that live in states already deemed 'free' have an obligation to their brothers in places like Califrornia and New York... to put their support that is not required in the state where they live, into efforts that most need it.

In other words, if you live in Utah and are not an NRA member and do not regularly contribute to The Calguns Foundation, you should feel the tug of an obligation to do so. Likewise, if you live in New Hampshire and do not contribute to SCOPE you should have the desire to share the trappings of liberty that you enjoy, and be a card carrying volunteer in support of New York gun owners.

If you have retreated to a free state to evade any responsibility to the preservation of liberty, to mock others in their struggle against tyranny, and relish the ease of casual freedom with no expectation of sacrifice... you are more detestable than those who are overtly circumventing our right to keep and carry arms... Because the depth of your kinship with us ends short of bleeding with and for us.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
None of our objectives can be advanced by a retreat to territories not in dispute.

The front lines of the war over the second amendment are New York, California, Maryland, Illinois, and New Jersey. What ever victory we have will be won here... not in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Virginia, New Hampshire, or Vermont. Those that live in states already deemed 'free' have an obligation to their brothers in places like Califrornia and New York... to put their support that is not required in the state where they live, into efforts that most need it.

In other words, if you live in Utah and are not an NRA member and do not regularly contribute to The Calguns Foundation, you should feel the tug of an obligation to do so. Likewise, if you live in New Hampshire and do not contribute to SCOPE you should have the desire to share the trappings of liberty that you enjoy, and be a card carrying volunteer in support of New York gun owners.

If you have retreated to a free state to evade any responsibility to the preservation of liberty, to mock others in their struggle against tyranny, and relish the ease of casual freedom with no expectation of sacrifice... you are more detestable than those who are overtly circumventing our right to keep and carry arms... Because the depth of your kinship with us ends short of bleeding with and for us.
With all due respect when some out of state OCers have made suggestions or spoke of support, they have been told repeatedly to mind your own business by CA people. I may be wrong, and you can correct me, but I believe you have told me to mind my own business before.

If you want the support you have to take any suggestions or criticism, or you can go it alone. Make up your minds. I really despise arrogant people who ask for money. If that is not you then I apologize, if it is then bugger off.
 

FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,508
Location
Secret Bunker
@Con3

You make very valid points. It is human nature to see someone between a rock & a hard place and have a inner voice say: "damn I'm glad that's not me!". It should also be second nature to ask: "Can I help?".

This said I will follow my own advice & send a donation to your group before weeks end. If we all chipped in a few bucks when we could instead buying that: (snicker bar, coffee, soda/pop, etc...), we could make huge gains on the "freedom fronts".

+1 Con3
 

Tactical9mm

Regular Member
Joined
Apr 2, 2011
Messages
138
Location
Manchester, New Hampshire
None of our objectives can be advanced by a retreat to territories not in dispute.

The front lines of the war over the second amendment are New York, California, Maryland, Illinois, and New Jersey. What ever victory we have will be won here... not in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Virginia, New Hampshire, or Vermont. Those that live in states already deemed 'free' have an obligation to their brothers in places like Califrornia and New York... to put their support that is not required in the state where they live, into efforts that most need it.

In other words, if you live in Utah and are not an NRA member and do not regularly contribute to The Calguns Foundation, you should feel the tug of an obligation to do so. Likewise, if you live in New Hampshire and do not contribute to SCOPE you should have the desire to share the trappings of liberty that you enjoy, and be a card carrying volunteer in support of New York gun owners.

If you have retreated to a free state to evade any responsibility to the preservation of liberty, to mock others in their struggle against tyranny, and relish the ease of casual freedom with no expectation of sacrifice... you are more detestable than those who are overtly circumventing our right to keep and carry arms... Because the depth of your kinship with us ends short of bleeding with and for us.

“Our” objectives are very different. I’m going to be blunt in this reply, and no personal offense is intended.

The 86 million people (rounded to the nearest million, per the 2012 US census numbers) who live in the “battleground” States that you mentioned, choose to be slaves. Out of 314 million people in the US (again per the 2012 census numbers), that is a big percentage of people choosing to exist in a condition of voluntary slavery. Continued residence in said jurisdictions for whatever reasons proves this.

Daily living in those States (paying taxes, functioning in their economies) contributes to the status-quo. It ensures the continuity of the absence of liberty for the subjects in those areas.

I have no pity for (nor do I mock), nor do I have any desire to assist those people in any way. “States” like California are lost causes for gun owners. Failing to recognize that reality and insisting on wasting resources in futile efforts in those locations is not logical, or ultimately productive.

Personally, any resources that I donate go directly into New Hampshire pro-gun organizations that are keeping our citizens here free. As far as Federally, I only support GOA.

Best of luck.
 

FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,508
Location
Secret Bunker
@Tac9mm.

Man with that kind of attitude you better hope those sneaky folks in Canada never decide to over run your puny state and force you to watch hockey night in Canada at french toast skillet point!

Seriously, to just say screw those who live in less free states -shows a complete lack of situational awareness on your part. If we allow other of our countrymen to be oppressed, what does that make us? The move towards dictatorship in our country is like a cancer. If we don't fight it , it will and has spread.

I for one - would much rather fight it in the: legislatures, courts & press now than in the streets later. But hey that's just me...:confused:
 

carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
@Tac9mm.

Man with that kind of attitude you better hope those sneaky folks in Canada never decide to over run your puny state and force you to watch hockey night in Canada at french toast skillet point!

Seriously, to just say screw those who live in less free states -shows a complete lack of situational awareness on your part. If we allow other of our countrymen to be oppressed, what does that make us? The move towards dictatorship in our country is like a cancer. If we don't fight it , it will and has spread.

I for one - would much rather fight it in the: legislatures, courts & press now than in the streets later. But hey that's just me...:confused:

Just don't forget part of the reasoning behind the Federal system of Sovereign States is if one state better suits someone's desires/needs, one is free to move between states. It is much harder to switch between countries.

That said, it sure sounds to me like the people living in the states that repress basic guaranteed freedoms need to solicit funds and BURY the State in litigation as it is clear that the Legislation route is a non-starter. Given Heller/McDonald, I do not know who this cannot be a 14th Amendment "equal protection" issue. How does someone in NH have a greater "right" to self defense than someone in CA/IL/NJ/NY ?? (or put differently, how does CA have a different and stronger "compelling interest" than NC or NH in restricting a basic RIGHT?)

My $0.02... collect LOTS of money and sue the heck outta CA and stop wasting time/$ on legislation.
 
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acmariner99

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2010
Messages
655
Location
Renton, Wa
I am worried about the front in my home state before worrying about the front in others. While granted, we need to do all we can to keep the "cancer" from spreading - but the best way to do that IMO is to fight those trying to inject anti-2A laws into the legislatures of moderate to lax states. WA is looking to ban private transfers this session - and I am trying to make sure the feds and Olympia don't try to say the things I own are now illegal.

Cali is the most populous state in the Union - and supposedly many gun owners live outside the urban counties. So why aren't more of your own subjects trying to keep Sacramento in its place?

Those that have left for greener pastures are well within their rights to do so. I wouldn't call it giving up, I would say it is freedom of choice. You can fight for your rights, live with the restrictions - you may not have the "means" to leave but you are still choosing to live in that environment and the restrictions that come with it, or leave.

I just wish many of the people leaving the DPRK would leave their idiot DPRK ideas behind.
 

ConditionThree

State Pioneer
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
2,231
Location
Shasta County, California, USA
With all due respect when some out of state OCers have made suggestions or spoke of support, they have been told repeatedly to mind your own business by CA people. I may be wrong, and you can correct me, but I believe you have told me to mind my own business before.

If you want the support you have to take any suggestions or criticism, or you can go it alone. Make up your minds. I really despise arrogant people who ask for money. If that is not you then I apologize, if it is then bugger off.

I don't know whether or not I offended you. It's entirely possible that I might have, but in the context of getting your suggestion shot down and moving on with real issues like stopping damaging legislation or funding necessary litigation, I hardly think that dwelling on personal offense is worthy of your time.

“Our” objectives are very different. I’m going to be blunt in this reply, and no personal offense is intended.

The 86 million people (rounded to the nearest million, per the 2012 US census numbers) who live in the “battleground” States that you mentioned, choose to be slaves. Out of 314 million people in the US (again per the 2012 census numbers), that is a big percentage of people choosing to exist in a condition of voluntary slavery. Continued residence in said jurisdictions for whatever reasons proves this.

Daily living in those States (paying taxes, functioning in their economies) contributes to the status-quo. It ensures the continuity of the absence of liberty for the subjects in those areas.

I have no pity for (nor do I mock), nor do I have any desire to assist those people in any way. “States” like California are lost causes for gun owners. Failing to recognize that reality and insisting on wasting resources in futile efforts in those locations is not logical, or ultimately productive.

Personally, any resources that I donate go directly into New Hampshire pro-gun organizations that are keeping our citizens here free. As far as Federally, I only support GOA.

Best of luck.

While you view California as a lost cause, I believe that California (or Illinois- Im not positive which really) is where litigation will originate that will change the second amendment landscape to shackle future legislative attempts to deprive us of the right to keep and carry. The attitude of 'I got mine' isnt nearly as offensive as your reluctance to kick $5.00 into the kitty to support liberty everywhere... which should be our mutual goal.
 

marshaul

Campaign Veteran
Joined
Aug 13, 2007
Messages
11,188
Location
Fairfax County, Virginia
The front lines of the war over the second amendment are New York, California, Maryland, Illinois, and New Jersey. What ever victory we have will be won here... not in Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, Utah, Virginia, New Hampshire, or Vermont.

Nope. California is already a lost cause. You, my friend, are merely unable to see it. In fact I recall you defending more than one action, any one of which alone guaranteed California's inevitable fall into surrender disguised as compromise.

California had a real opportunity to try to work the public. This has worked in other states, and I saw it begin to work there.

When Calguns shut all that down, with promises they cannot keep of, in some distant future, shall-issue licensure, of all the intolerable affronts! I knew California was doomed.

When Bigtoe was hindered instead of helped, I knew CA was doomed.

The proof is in the pudding: no amount of legal wrangling by a select few, elite, "the right people", can hold back a tide. It will always be too little, way too late. You'll barely manage to scrape out a space to "live" in the aftermath.

If you're lucky, you'll see shall-issue for semi-automatic handguns of capacity less than 10 rounds (looks like revolvers are on their way out because they're scary "new technology" like the evil "1990s street sweeper", but Heller does protect semis), and you'll get to keep your bolt rifles and shotguns. That's it. You'll never get anything else back, not until (and unless) the rest of the nation has won the war for you, and liberty once again has real political influence nationally.

In fact, you should support us. And not just over guns – it will take a broader pro-liberty attitude becoming nationally popular to mobilize people in states like yours. Do something to help libertarianism spread, or support the LP, or other independent parties. That's your only option. You've already permanently thrown away the chance to win directly, in California, focusing purely on gun rights. That will never happen.

Once upon a time, I was right there with you. I know how it feels to be you. It sucks. But your fellow Californians, pro- and anti-gun, have betrayed you.

I lost my sympathy when Calguns threw away a chance at victory for pitiful scraps – the privilege to do no more than meekly beg for permission to do that which is your right, and for you specifically when you uttered a word in their defense. What Calguns did, and is doing, in California is indefensible. As the primary face of RKBA advocacy in California, they have given the entire state up in a compromise which is in reality complete surrender. Victory can never be won by lurking in the shadows, trying to manipulate behind the scenes (most especially when the scenes are controlled by manipulators better than you). You do not assert right by concealing its exercise. In fact, to do so only reinforces the impression that you at wrongdoers are heart, seeking to get away with something under the public's nose. It is an approach necessarily, unavoidable, and predictably doomed to failure. I've called it in the past, I'm calling it now, and the future will continue to confirm my prediction.

To put it plainly: when a group claims a monopoly on RKBA advocacy, the entire state grants it to them, and that group proceeds to irrevocably discard any claim to right, and instead seeks nothing more than to ensure privilege for those motivated and knowledgeable enough to pursue it (in practice, as we both damn well know, upper-middle-class white guys), the cause is lost. There is literally nobody in California to advocate right. (You may now claim you do, but you've disproved this claim permanently with past words). With literally nobody asserting right, or seeking to exercise right, right cannot be meaningfully said to exist – it is no more than a philosophical construct, as when I argue there is a right to drive.

Your state is no longer worthy of support or defense. I maintain only sympathy, and only for those who have never affiliated themselves with Calguns or the CGF, or spoken in the defense of those despicable entities.

I'm sorry for my harsh language. But if I'm consistent in one thing, it's calling it like I see it.
 
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Raffie

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
75
Location
Lynnwood
I wanted to move back to Calif after I retire and enjoy the beach and stuff.
Not now....:cuss:

Everyone in in Calif who wants to live in a country/state with no guns except the gov and local police should all get on Dianne Feinstein's broom and fly over to China and live the dream.
I'm sure her broom would have more then enough room.

I'm am sorry as well to see a cool state get ran over like this.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
I don't know whether or not I offended you. It's entirely possible that I might have, but in the context of getting your suggestion shot down and moving on with real issues like stopping damaging legislation or funding necessary litigation, I hardly think that dwelling on personal offense is worthy of your time.



While you view California as a lost cause, I believe that California (or Illinois- Im not positive which really) is where litigation will originate that will change the second amendment landscape to shackle future legislative attempts to deprive us of the right to keep and carry. The attitude of 'I got mine' isnt nearly as offensive as your reluctance to kick $5.00 into the kitty to support liberty everywhere... which should be our mutual goal.
Yea I can see how CA got into the pitiful shape 2A wise with attitudes like the above. And you really expect outsiders to have any kind of support or sympathy with that type of behavior. YOU brought this on yourself. It would be a cold day in helll before I would give 5 cents let alone 5 dollars to any organization you represent.
 

bellyfat

Regular Member
Joined
May 28, 2012
Messages
69
Location
north carolina
ditto for new york

i lived ther for 2 years and wasnt very active with guns at the time but, all the other police state issues overwhelmed me.
such as property tax, fire tax, school tax, county tax, city tax, and liabilty and licensing for off road vehicles, snow mobiles dirt bikes.
i built a new house there and when i got my tax bill, i put a for sale sign in the yard that didnt even have grass growing at the time.
i sold the house, quit my job and moved to a free state within a month.....never looked back.
 

carolina guy

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Messages
1,737
Location
Concord, NC
If the remaining people who CARE about liberty

stay in CA or NY, and they do not help BURY the state under lawsuit after lawsuit for EVERY violation, then they are part of the problem. They contribute to the tax base and the salaries of those who oppress them. How about you sponsor a simple referendum to the CA constitution that will make the removal of ANY public employee (from US Reps/Senators on down to street sweepers) that violate their oath to be removed from office and stripped of all civil and criminal immunity. If you phrased it correctly, it might just get past all the low information types. Then if a police officer violates someones rights, sue them in small claims, get it on record and remove them from "office". Any representative that goes on record voting for a law that is Unconstitutional on its face could then be removed. Spend your $$ and time on those...not contacting the reps that could care less if you live or die.
 

rpyne

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
1,072
Location
Provo, Utah, USA
In other words, if you live in Utah and are not an NRA member and do not regularly contribute to The Calguns Foundation, you should feel the tug of an obligation to do so. Likewise, if you live in New Hampshire and do not contribute to SCOPE you should have the desire to share the trappings of liberty that you enjoy, and be a card carrying volunteer in support of New York gun owners..

Being one of the many who worked to get Utah a shall issue state, I can tell you that when we really got things done was when we told the NRA and the state affiliate to butt out. We formed a coalition of gun owners and freedom advocates and made it very clear to the legislators that the NRA did not represent us and we were going to do whatever we had to do to get shall issue.

With all due respect when some out of state OCers have made suggestions or spoke of support, they have been told repeatedly to mind your own business by CA people. I may be wrong, and you can correct me, but I believe you have told me to mind my own business before.

If you want the support you have to take any suggestions or criticism, or you can go it alone. Make up your minds. I really despise arrogant people who ask for money. If that is not you then I apologize, if it is then bugger off.

I am in full agreement with WalkingWolf. I, like him, have been told to mind my own business when making suggestions to the CA group. Why should I now give money to a group that has been a dismal failure at protecting your rights by compromising them away out of fear of losing (or winning and thereby having no basis to beg for more money)?
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
If it weren't for those pesky out-of-staters we would've had "shall issue."

If it weren't for those pesky out-of-staters we would've kept unloaded OC.

If we could just invent a "carbon neutral" firearm we would be sitting phat right now.

.....snort.....
 

77zach

Regular Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2007
Messages
2,913
Location
Marion County, FL
Saf

I see a small but significant chance the scotus will, in the years ahead, give us semi-autos, shall issue, and void mag restrictions (at least up to 30, anything more may not be deemed "common"). So, I contribute to SAF. That is as far as I go in supporting CA, Nazi York, etc. Changing the states from within is a lost cause. My advice to people like Condition 3 is to join the free state project in Wyoming. Those in Neu Jersey and Nazi York should join Free State New Hampshire.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
I see a small but significant chance the scotus will, in the years ahead, give us semi-autos, shall issue, and void mag restrictions (at least up to 30, anything more may not be deemed "common"). .

I see it as a slam dunk ... the weapons or arms that are not covered by the 2nd include: blackjacks, brass knuckles, most chemical weapons, most biological weapons, and other stuff not really related to a militia or military application or domestic defense.

Of course, it could be that this country will have areas where a AR 15 is protected under the 2nd in one area and not in others...and SCOTUS simply will not take on a case to decide for a long time.
 

WalkingWolf

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2011
Messages
11,930
Location
North Carolina
I see it as a slam dunk ... the weapons or arms that are not covered by the 2nd include: blackjacks, brass knuckles, most chemical weapons, most biological weapons, and other stuff not really related to a militia or military application or domestic defense.

Of course, it could be that this country will have areas where a AR 15 is protected under the 2nd in one area and not in others...and SCOTUS simply will not take on a case to decide for a long time.

I believe the military has used all of the above, at one time or another. Pepper spray would be either a biological or chemical weapon. The military had a brass knuckle knife, assist or gravity knives are used by paratroopers.
 
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