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Thread: Colleges, you'd think they would be smarter.

  1. #1
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Colleges, you'd think they would be smarter.

    I found this in a student code of conduct as authorized by the state.

    (14) Illegal use or possession of weapons. The unauthorized use, possession, display, or storage of any weapons, fireworks or explosives on college premises or at any college-sponsored activity. The term weapon means any object or substance designed to inflict a wound, cause injury, or incapacitate. Weapons may include, but are not limited to, all firearms (whether lawfully or unlawfully possessed), pellet guns, slingshots, martial arts devices, switchblade knives and clubs. Legal defense sprays possessed or used for the purpose of self-defense are exempt from this section;

    http://apps.leg.wa.gov/wac/default.a...e=495D-121-160

    I thought that all free citizens were authorized to carry/possess firearms.

    Does this seem crystal clear to anyone here?
    Last edited by Grapeshot; 02-08-2013 at 07:58 AM. Reason: Title verbiage
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Pretty standard language for most colleges in Washington. Doesn't make it right though.

    I'm surprised you're surprised to find this.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deanf View Post
    Pretty standard language for most colleges in Washington. Doesn't make it right though.

    I'm surprised you're surprised to find this.
    It seems to be a round about way of saying it's legal while making it look prohibited.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Alpine's Avatar
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    AFAIK OC and CC is probably legal on state college campuses given that the WACs that allow them to ban guns are superseded by RCWs and the state constitution, however, I'm not a lawyer and don't want to be a test case, nor would I encourage anyone else to be a test case.

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    Regular Member bmg50cal's Avatar
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    Pretty much sucks, I'd love to see the law change. For anyone wanting to protect themselves while attending college in WA, concealed is concealed.

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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    It seems to be a round about way of saying it's legal while making it look prohibited.
    Think of it this way: The colleges (because they have not been challanged in court) can make rules of conduct for the students, and the staff, but not the public. OK? You cannot be trespassed off of areas of a college that are open to the general public for being armed. You can be put out of school, or become unemployed, if you have that type of a connection to the school and you violate their "rule", but that rule and code of conduct means absolutely nothing (at least in WA and OR) to John Q Citizen, no matter what the school thinks.

    BTW: WSU has a prohibition for the students, but not the staff, South Sound CC has no prohibition at all. Most of the schools have a prohibition on the students and staff with the caviat that the dean of students may exempt someone. I believe even UW has that little jem.

    However, In/on grounds and buildings that are open to the general public, their little prohibition has no stating, for the general public.

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    Simple solution for colleges:

    CC. AFAIK, you can't be criminally charged. You can be suspended or expelled if you're a student, but the question is: Would you rather be armed just in case, or risk being expelled at the very rare chance someone found out you were carrying.

    Unfortunately, in today's world, carrying is a gamble in some way, shape, or form. This is just another example.

    I go to college. Do I carry? Who knows?

    (I most likely don't, seeing as how I take karate at my college, and I don't have a holster that plays nicely with a gi)
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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpine View Post
    AFAIK OC and CC is probably legal on state college campuses given that the WACs that allow them to ban guns are superseded by RCWs and the state constitution, however, I'm not a lawyer and don't want to be a test case, nor would I encourage anyone else to be a test case.
    This entire subject has been extensively discussed in previous threads complete with cites, WAC's, and RCW's. It is all there to read.
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Government is not reason; it is not eloquent -- it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    --George Washington,
    first U.S. president

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    Regular Member Freedom1Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OlGutshotWilly View Post
    This entire subject has been extensively discussed in previous threads complete with cites, WAC's, and RCW's. It is all there to read.
    Sorry never saw a thread for colleges. I've asked in other threads but was kept on topic.
    Provision for free medical attendance and nursing, for clothing, for food, for housing, for the education of children, and a hundred other matters, might with equal propriety be proposed as tending to relieve the employee of mental strain and worry. --- These matters obviously lie outside the orbit of congressional power. (Railroad Retirement Board v Alton Railroad)

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Well this topic is hurt and it to me as of late. On Tuesday the 5th, at Clover Park technical College in Lakewood, I went to inform the head of security of the fact that there are leftover signs from when a certain building now part of the college that used to be the Clover Park alternative school. These signs indicated that weapons were not allowed. I was open carrying at the time and the head of security notice this of course and told me that it was against school policy to open carry based on certain posted policy and procedures.

    I informed him that this was contrary to state law which said that I was not required to conceal carry even though I did in fact have my concealed pistol license. I explained that the concealed pistol license in fact was only required when actually carrying concealed or when carrying loaded in a vehicle and that having a concealed pistol license did not require that I actually carry concealed.

    He informed me that he was a former Tacoma Police Department officer. He also informed me after a few questions that in his personal opinion that he would in fact disarm every single student at Clover Park technical College if he had the ability to do so. He also informed me of his opinion that anybody with any mental illness should be prohibited from owning firearms period.

    Based on my observation of your open carry of a firearm on campus, which is a violation of the attached policy, I have made a complaint to the VP of operations and college relations requesting that she revoke your approval to carry concealed weapon under our CPTC policy. This is also based on your stating to me that you intend to continue to carry the firearm openly when it suits you to do so. Since our policy prohibits open carry on our campuses, in the VP revokes your approval, you will no longer be allowed to carry a firearm on campus. If I see you carrying the weapon in an open carry manner on campus between today and the receipt of a decision from the VP, I will direct you to remove the weapon from campus. If you fail to do so I will summon the Lakewood Police Department to assist me in enforcing the CPTC policy.
    In his email he attached a word document that expressed the school's policy and procedure with regards to weapons that said caring of weapons on campus was only to be done concealed and with permission.

    The problem with this was that the page he linked to me was part of the staff policy and procedures found on the human resources section of the colleges website. The problem lies in the fact that the student policies and procedures found in the 2012- 2013 catalog specifically states on page 146 under the student code of conduct that disciplinary action may be taken for a violation of a list of provisions specifically number 10 which states "possession of firearms, except where approved by state statute"

    I have already contacted the vice president with regards to this email and given her a copy of pertinent information regarding employee and student policies on campus as well as state law regarding the carrying of firearms. I have expressed my concern that I have in fact abided by both state law and the student policies and procedures.

    As of now being Friday the 8th, I have yet to receive any further contact from the vice president or the head of security. Depending on the outcome I may be forced to pursue a legal recourse.

    CPTC Policies and Procedures for staff

    CPTC 2012-2013 catalog
    - page 146 "Student Code of Conduct"
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
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    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Colleges, you'd think they would be smarter.

    I knew this thread would catch your attention Grimm.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    I knew this thread would catch your attention Grimm.
    Lol...
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
    1) Liberals never quit until they are satisfied.
    2) Liberals are never satisfied.

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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom1Man View Post
    Sorry never saw a thread for colleges. I've asked in other threads but was kept on topic.

    I'll look it up and post the link. It included, I believe, colleges, public hospital districts, and other municipal entities. As mentioned already, the issues are separated by your status as a student vs a non-student exercising your rights under pre-emption.
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Government is not reason; it is not eloquent -- it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    --George Washington,
    first U.S. president

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    Universities aren't there to teach people about their rights and promote freedom. They are there to program our young with Communist dogma in order to turn them into good liberals who support big government programs.

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    Campaign Veteran OlGutshotWilly's Avatar
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    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...the-WWU-Campus

    Diverging opinions on whether .290 applies or not. The link in my post no longer works apparently, but supported my point.

    Thread on other municipalities specifically Public Hospital districts. Not pertinent to this thread but since I referenced it in my above post here it is:

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...ospital-Policy
    THE SECOND AMENDMENT: Washington didn't use his right to free speech to defeat the British, he shot them.
    ---------------------------------------------
    Government is not reason; it is not eloquent -- it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master."
    --George Washington,
    first U.S. president

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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Grim your response is of little surprise as it seems you just can't stand not letting officials know you are carrying.

    I think if a student took this and pushed it through the courts it would come back the College can make rules prohibiting firearms as a condition of enrollment, similar to Cherry V. Metro.
    If a citizen that is not a student ran it through the same path it would come back as the College is unable to prohibit possession.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Grim your response is of little surprise as it seems you just can't stand not letting officials know you are carrying.

    I think if a student took this and pushed it through the courts it would come back the College can make rules prohibiting firearms as a condition of enrollment, similar to Cherry V. Metro.
    If a citizen that is not a student ran it through the same path it would come back as the College is unable to prohibit possession.
    I'm not familiar with that case. I can find LONG drawn out arguments for the WSSC, but nothing that summarizes what the decision meant.

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Grim your response is of little surprise as it seems you just can't stand not letting officials know you are carrying.

    I think if a student took this and pushed it through the courts it would come back the College can make rules prohibiting firearms as a condition of enrollment, similar to Cherry V. Metro.
    If a citizen that is not a student ran it through the same path it would come back as the College is unable to prohibit possession.
    The problem with your statement is that #1 I did notsay a thing, I was simply open carrying just like anybody else on these forums. #2 the student policies and procedures supports me in that I was abiding by state law which it clearly states is the requirement. And #3 the college is funded mostly in part be both federal and state money with tuition making up only a small portion of the colleges funds. Maybe you should read thelinks that I posted before yet again criticising me.
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    I'm not familiar with that case. I can find LONG drawn out arguments for the WSSC, but nothing that summarizes what the decision meant.
    Cherry v Metro is a case where a Metro bus driver that brought a gun to work and could be fired because he was not a member of the public. Thus, state preemption law did not apply.

    I am speaking of the similarities it may present as Cherry was an employer employee relationship and here we are discussing a College and College Student relationship.
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

  20. #20
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    The problem with your statement is that #1 I did not say a thing, I was simply open carrying just like anybody else on these forums.
    You didn't say, WHAT?
    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    I went to inform the head of security of the fact that there are leftover signs
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Grim your response is of little surprise as it seems you just can't stand not letting officials know you are carrying.

    I think if a student took this and pushed it through the courts it would come back the College can make rules prohibiting firearms as a condition of enrollment, similar to Cherry V. Metro.
    If a citizen that is not a student ran it through the same path it would come back as the College is unable to prohibit possession.
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    You didn't say, WHAT?
    So what was your point? Not to OC?
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member Grim_Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    You didn't say, WHAT?
    ok so... going to the city and telling them about signs that say no weapons allowed is ok but going to a school that has signs that say the same thing even though they are invalid is not ok? the signs were leftover from when that building was part of the local school district. but now that the building belongs to the college, they are very much so invalid and may lead to confusion and trouble for both the people that don't know better and the people that are following the actual rules.

    But hey... just go right on ahead and give me a hard time yet again... seems like you're very good at busting people's chops for no good reason

    Oh and thanks SVG :P
    Armed and annoyingly well informed!

    There are two constants when dealing with liberals:
    1) Liberals never quit until they are satisfied.
    2) Liberals are never satisfied.

  23. #23
    Regular Member tombrewster421's Avatar
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    Colleges, you'd think they would be smarter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    ok so... going to the city and telling them about signs that say no weapons allowed is ok but going to a school that has signs that say the same thing even though they are invalid is not ok? the signs were leftover from when that building was part of the local school district. but now that the building belongs to the college, they are very much so invalid and may lead to confusion and trouble for both the people that don't know better and the people that are following the actual rules.

    But hey... just go right on ahead and give me a hard time yet again... seems like you're very good at busting people's chops for no good reason

    Oh and thanks SVG :P
    I wouldn't say he's that good at it.
    Guns don't kill people, bullets do!

  24. #24
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tombrewster421 View Post
    I wouldn't say he's that good at it.
    +1
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  25. #25
    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grim_Night View Post
    ok so... going to the city and telling them about signs that say no weapons allowed is ok but going to a school that has signs that say the same thing even though they are invalid is not ok? the signs were leftover from when that building was part of the local school district. but now that the building belongs to the college, they are very much so invalid and may lead to confusion and trouble for both the people that don't know better and the people that are following the actual rules.

    But hey... just go right on ahead and give me a hard time yet again... seems like you're very good at busting people's chops for no good reason

    Oh and thanks SVG :P
    Push it through Grim and see how well it works out for you! Keep drawing unnecessary attention to yourself, in some settings it is just better to cover up and shut up and still be armed or is it to push it until they solidify it in stone and prevent anyone from carrying?
    • Being prepared is to prepare, this is our responsibility.
    • I am not your Mommy or Daddy and do not sugar coat it but I will tell you simply as how I see it, it is up to you on how you will or will not use it.
    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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