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Thread: McGinn Has Authority To Shut Down Gun Sales On Street, During Gun Buyback...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    McGinn Has Authority To Shut Down Gun Sales On Street, During Gun Buyback...

    This morning, on KIRO radio, McGinn was questioned about his authority to shut-down street firearm sales/purchases during the city buy-back program. McGinn stated that he has the authority to shut down street sales/purchases in Seattle.

    Sorry, looked, and looked, for the footage, but couldn't find it...just getting it out there.

    For some reason, they don't have the entirety of the interview from this morning.

    Here's the link, though...maybe there is someone more internet savvy than I: http://kiroradio.com/listen/9952094

    You know, it just dawned on me that this is not OC related...so, if it needs to be moved, move it, powers that be. Thank you!
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 02-08-2013 at 02:09 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    http://mynorthwest.com/11/2197651/Se...walk-gun-sales


    I would like the city's attorney to give us the method or reasoning that gives them authority.
    Last edited by SeattleWingsfan; 02-08-2013 at 02:39 PM.
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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link. I had a helluva time finding something.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    Regular Member Beretta92FSLady's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleWingsfan View Post
    http://mynorthwest.com/11/2197651/Se...walk-gun-sales


    I would like the city's attorney to give us the method or reasoning that gives them authority.
    Street vender issue?

    McGinn is an asshat: *attorney looks around* "...he found me some authority and we're going to shut it down next time," said McGinn." http://mynorthwest.com/11/2197651/Se...walk-gun-sales
    Last edited by Beretta92FSLady; 02-08-2013 at 02:43 PM.
    I don't mind watching the OC-Community (tea party 2.0's, who have hijacked the OC-Community) cannibalize itself. I do mind watching OC dragged through the gutter. OC is an exercise of A Right. I choose to not OC; I choose to not own firearms. I choose to leave the OC-Community to it's own self-inflicted injuries, and eventual implosion. Carry on...

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    I just emailed Carl and asked for cite and reasoning that he believes they have this authority.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Thanks for the link. I had a helluva time finding something.
    In all fairness that article went up minutes before I posted it. Lol. I had a hard time till then.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    I am unable to find anything that would provide for a restriction of citizens buying or citizens only businesses and then cannot be more restrictive then any other business operation.

    It might be his interpretation of (3)(a) Cities, towns, and counties may enact ordinances restricting the areas in their respective jurisdictions in which firearms may be sold,but, except as provided in (b)

    I do not see that as their ability to restrict firearms sales or purchase of citizens, again only with businesses and then cannot be more restrictive then any other business operation.

    This might well be another legal battle to be fought in the courts.

    RCW 9.41.290
    State preemption.

    The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.
    RCW 9.41.300
    Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.
    (3)(a) Cities, towns, and counties may enact ordinances restricting the areas in their respective jurisdictions in which firearms may be sold, but, except as provided in (b) of this subsection, a business selling firearms may not be treated more restrictively than other businesses located within the same zone. An ordinance requiring the cessation of business within a zone shall not have a shorter grandfather period for businesses selling firearms than for any other businesses within the zone.
    (b) Cities, towns, and counties may restrict the location of a business selling firearms to not less than five hundred feet from primary or secondary school grounds, if the business has a storefront, has hours during which it is open for business, and posts advertisements or signs observable to passersby that firearms are available for sale. A business selling firearms that exists as of the date a restriction is enacted under this subsection (3)(b) shall be grandfathered according to existing law.
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    Do I smell another white paper? And its not "doing business"..its a private sale IMO

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    As predicted, Thursday evening’s investigation on the effectiveness of gun “buybacks” by KIRO’s Amy Clancy revealed that they are not an effective counter-measure to violent crime, but that’s not stopping the Seattle P-I.com’s Joel Connelly from going after guns in his Friday morning on-line column.

    http://www.examiner.com/article/prom...id=db_articles

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    The cite given in the article is SMC 15.17 URL:http://clerk.seattle.gov/~public/toc/15-17.htm

    When reading this its in regards to vending. An individual standing on a sidewalk with a sign, is not vending, selling or displaying merchandise. I don't see any authority here for the city to cite anyone for anything. Additionally, this is specific to street and sidewalks, if you stay off the sidewalk (perhaps in a private parking lot, grass area), this section would not even apply.

    Plus there is this gem, that I think could apply:
    SMC 15.02.027 First Amendment rights; personal freedoms

    This Street Use Ordinance shall be interpreted in a manner consistent with the First and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution and Article I, Sections 3, 4, 5, and 11 of the Washington Constitution.
    I see nothing within SMC 15 - (STREET AND SIDEWALK USE) that could apply.

    I think he is just trying to scare people away...

    An individual is not a business. Even if he claims your a business outside where your regulated to be, he would still have to establish the claim that your a business... Not happening.
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-08-2013 at 05:13 PM.
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    I agree that's why I asked Carl for a cite and reasoning that leads them to believe they can shut down private sales.

    That article has been edited 3 times atleast and that cite and fine info was not present in the first two versions.
    Last edited by SeattleWingsfan; 02-08-2013 at 05:18 PM.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Vendors are selling items, those who bought guns at the previous gun buy back were not selling, correct?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    Vendors are selling items, those who bought guns at the previous gun buy back were not selling, correct?

    I think they could consider the person giving you the gun as vending.

    I think I will go to the next one with a sign that says. "Helping Seattle get guns off the street, cash donations for unwanted guns"

    Or maybe we all set up in a parking lot and have a couple sign dancers like fast-food places directing people to the parking lot.
    Last edited by SeattleWingsfan; 02-08-2013 at 05:50 PM.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    is there a way we can go to court and get a TRO issued against the city pending a challenge (which can be dropped once the buy back is over?)

    ?

    or some kind of injunction against the city?

    where is Rapgood? does anyone here know an attorney good with municipal code to comment?
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDave View Post
    I am unable to find anything that would provide for a restriction of citizens buying or citizens only businesses and then cannot be more restrictive then any other business operation.

    It might be his interpretation of (3)(a) Cities, towns, and counties may enact ordinances restricting the areas in their respective jurisdictions in which firearms may be sold,but, except as provided in (b)

    I do not see that as their ability to restrict firearms sales or purchase of citizens, again only with businesses and then cannot be more restrictive then any other business operation.

    This might well be another legal battle to be fought in the courts.
    The part that is wrong with this is the private will not be selling, they will be purchasing. If the city is purchasing, and the sellers are not licensed, then if the selllers should not need a license to sell to a private party either...NO

    Remember, we will be purchasers, not sellers.

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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    The part that is wrong with this is the private will not be selling, they will be purchasing. If the city is purchasing, and the sellers are not licensed, then if the selllers should not need a license to sell to a private party either...NO
    Remember, we will be purchasers, not sellers.
    I read it that way. Someone do a PDR to the City Attorney seeking the basis for his representation of the authority he contends the mayor has. Get that, and we possibly may have a basis for a TRO and PI.

    For the City to attempt to restrict sales (donations, gifts, whatever they want to call it) to Seattle only, and not to allow sales (donations, gifts, whatever they want to call it) to private parties potentially violates a whole bunch of Constitutional provisions and protections, both U.S. and State.
    Subject to the "authority" described in the PDR results produced, there may exist one or more strong bases for equitable relief. I have a couple of other tricks up my sleeve that may be applicable, but don't need to be stated here. They read these boards, too!
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    The part that is wrong with this is the private will not be selling, they will be purchasing. If the city is purchasing, and the sellers are not licensed, then if the selllers should not need a license to sell to a private party either...NO

    Remember, we will be purchasers, not sellers.
    Did you miss this portion I posted ?

    "I do not see that as their ability to restrict firearms sales or purchase of citizens, again only with businesses and then cannot be more restrictive then any other business operation."
    Last edited by BigDave; 02-09-2013 at 01:18 AM.
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    • IANAL, all information I present is for your review, do your own homework.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    I seem to have read that statute differently from most of you.
    Cities, towns, and counties may enact ordinances restricting the areas in their respective jurisdictions in which firearms may be sold, but, except as provided in (b) of this subsection, a business selling firearms...
    Everything before the "but" is generic. I think it applies to anyone selling firearms.
    After that, it starts talking about businesses, so you can probably ignore that part.
    My reasoning would go something like: since the city is purchasing firearms here, obviously this area is appropriate & acceptable for selling firearms.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleWingsfan
    I think they could consider the person giving you the gun as vending.
    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr
    If the city is purchasing, and the sellers are not licensed, then if the selllers should not need a license to sell to a private party either.
    Remember, we will be purchasers, not sellers.
    Yeah, but you know they won't harass the person wanting to get rid of the gun, they'll harass the people who are "interfering" with their "buyback" - that is, the good citizens who are not part of the official posse.


    Quote Originally Posted by SeattleWingsfan
    I think I will go to the next one with a sign that says:
    "Helping Seattle get guns off the street, cash donations for unwanted guns"
    I like that.
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    Re: McGinn Has Authority To Shut Down Gun Sales On Street, During Gun Buyback...

    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    I read it that way. Someone do a PDR to the City Attorney seeking the basis for his representation of the authority he contends the mayor has. Get that, and we possibly may have a basis for a TRO and PI.

    For the City to attempt to restrict sales (donations, gifts, whatever they want to call it) to Seattle only, and not to allow sales (donations, gifts, whatever they want to call it) to private parties potentially violates a whole bunch of Constitutional provisions and protections, both U.S. and State.
    Subject to the "authority" described in the PDR results produced, there may exist one or more strong bases for equitable relief. I have a couple of other tricks up my sleeve that may be applicable, but don't need to be stated here. They read these boards, too!
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    Quote Originally Posted by slapmonkay View Post
    ...An individual is not a business....
    It depends.

    If you go there for the purpose of reselling, you are engaged in a business, even if you were to eventually lose money.

    But if you are going there to enhance your personal collection, at whatever price, you are not engaged in a business, even if you were to eventually resell and make a huge windfall profit.

    It comes down to intent, and the burden of proof would be on the party claiming you are doing it as a business.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skeith5 View Post
    What is a pdr?
    Public Disclosure of Records, like this one:

    http://www.seattle.gov/law/pdr/forms/PDRRequestForm.pdf
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    [QUOTE=Beretta92FSLady;1894934]This morning, on KIRO radio, McGinn was questioned about his authority to shut-down street firearm sales/purchases during the city buy-back program. McGinn stated that he has the authority to shut down street sales/purchases in Seattle.

    Sorry, looked, and looked, for the footage, but couldn't find it...just getting it out there.

    For some reason, they don't have the entirety of the interview from this morning.

    Here's the link, though...maybe there is someone more internet savvy than I:
    http://kiroradio.com/listen/9952094

    You know, it just dawned on me that this is not OC related...so, if it needs to be moved, move it, powers that be. Thank you![/
    QUOTE]

    If it is off topic and in need of being moved, SpyderTatoo will let you know or report it to admin, until then good topic on something that relates to the open carriers who went down and purchased firearms while open carrying.
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    Regular Member EMNofSeattle's Avatar
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    Question? who the hell is "carl"? that McGinn keeps referencing in the article? he's not the seattle city attorney, who do I PDR? the mayors office or the Seattle Attorney?

    Does an attorney not working for the City Attorney's office have the authority to issue an opinion for police enforcment? McGinn referred to him as "the attorney in my office" is this "carl" a city employee?
    Last edited by EMNofSeattle; 02-09-2013 at 11:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EMNofSeattle View Post
    Question? who the hell is "carl"? that McGinn keeps referencing in the article? he's not the seattle city attorney, who do I PDR? the mayors office or the Seattle Attorney?

    Does an attorney not working for the City Attorney's office have the authority to issue an opinion for police enforcment? McGinn referred to him as "the attorney in my office" is this "carl" a city employee?

    http://www.seattle.gov/mayor/contact/team.htm
    --------------------
    Carl Marquardt
    Legal Counsel

    To schedule a meeting with Carl, contact
    Jennifer Cramer jennifer.cramer@seattle.gov

    Carl Marquardt serves as Legal Counsel to the Mayor. He is responsible for advising the Mayor and Mayor's staff on legal issues related to the functioning of the office, and serves as primary liaison to the City Attorney's Office, Seattle Police Department, and Seattle Fire Department. Carl is a graduate of Yale University and the University of Washington School of Law. After law school, he served as a law clerk to the Hon. Mary K. Becker on the Washington Court of Appeals, and was a partner in the Seattle law firm of Stokes Lawrence. He lives in the Madrona neighborhood with his wife and three children.

    --------------------
    Last edited by SeattleWingsfan; 02-09-2013 at 12:50 PM.
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    Carl still has not answered my request for a Cite and reasoning for how the Cite will work on the issue of private sales.

    Kiro Radio was mentioning 500 dollar fines all day yesterday. I thought about calling in and telling them that so far the city has not answered me on how the Cite given in the article will stop people. Even if it is enforcable on a street or sidewalk. Other public areas are game as well as private parking lots. This is clearly just a way to scare people into not going next time.

    I guess my main issue with all of this is how they keep saying they need to stop this because they don't know who is getting the firearms. What ever happened in this country to innocent until proven guilty so to speak. They should assume that all transactions are leagal and to people leagal to own, until proven otherwise. At whatever point if it ever happened that the laws infact got changed for back ground checks in the right process. If unlawful sales happened then they could and should deal with it.

    I don't see this much differnt than Amberg trying to make a motion and walking out. It's all people of athority trying to displace their ideas on the public without doing their duty to make changes in the correct manor.
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