Had an incident today...Probably going to need a lawyer

SaltH2OHokie said:

Any tips given on how that could have been better handled from a legal standpoint? Call the cops yourself (best defense is a strong offense)?

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Glad to hear it worked out....been there.

You were doing OK until you got to the Redneck part!

peter nap said:

Glad to hear it worked out....been there.

You were doing OK until you got to the Redneck part!

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I thought the same thing...that stung a bit...

peter nap said:

Glad to hear it worked out....been there.

You were doing OK until you got to the Redneck part!

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I swear it wasn't me!

SaltH2OHokie said:

Any tips given on how that could have been better handled from a legal standpoint? Call the cops yourself (best defense is a strong offense)?

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Congratulations on the successful outcome. I agree that calling the police would have probably been in your best interest. By letting the incident go and assuming that it was over, you allowed the other party to frame the incident and be the complainant causing the police to question your version. Luckily, the truth was discovered, but there was nothing to prevent the other driver from "imbellishing" and "setting the tone".

By calling the cops and providing a report, it would have allowed whatever law enforcement agent that handled the "incident" to already have an idea of YOUR side of the story.

I wouldn't necessarily describe it as the "best defense is a strong offense"...(perspective is always a strange animal). The other driver might very well have thought he was a victim. I'm sure he probably wasn't familiar with definitions of aggressor/defender and requirements of carrying. His ignorance means nothing. Allowing him to call the cops and say, "Hey! This guy pulled a gun on me! Here's his license plate number." without any frame of reference previously given to police allows HIM to define the incident regardless of how intentionally or unintentionally accurate, or inaccurate.

You obviously felt threatened enough to draw your firearm. Fortunately, the situation ended without you reaching the threshold to actually use lethal force. However, in my opinion, being the one to report an incident in which I felt threatened would be preferable to waiting for someone else, who's perspective might be different than mine, to define the issue.

Do you imagine his version included him following you into the parking lot? My guess is, this small detail might have been omitted in the other guy's version which may have started, midstream, with "My friends and I were in this parking lot when......."

Otherwise, I'm happy that the outcome ended favorably for you. Thanks for sharing it. Hopefully, it helps others to think about things they would do if faced with a similar situation. It caused me to think about what different choices I would have made. Hope you don't take my input as anything critical. I'm just simply sharing my opinion.

My apologies for the redneck comment. I've lived in Virginia for a few years now and know how that could be viewed...lol

In response to the questions about advice on doing this differently. Yes, I received advice from several people who I spoke to regarding the situation and what could have been done differently and the potential legal ramifications based on how I did handle the situation.

Most notably, it was recommended to me that I had the opportunity to leave several times and/or roll my window up. Also, I probably shouldn't have exited my vehicle following the threat from the 2nd individual approaching my vehicle as that could be viewed as confrontational on my part. The biggest question from a legal perspective was going to be reasonable use of force because the other individuals were unarmed.

In my mind, I did everything right up until they pulled up next to me in the parking lot. Should I have immediately left...probably; but as it was occurring in real time, there wasn't but maybe 2-3 seconds between me seeing them pulling around the parking lot, stopping next to me, and the individual running towards my car. Unfortunately, things happen quickly and in my mind, these people were determined to confront me one way or another and right or wrong, I'm not the "back down" type of person. I was under the assumption that no matter what I did, they were going to aggressively pursue me. I'm a combat veteran who stands 6'2" and 195 lbs and I have a lot of experience on what I deem to be a necessary use of force to protect myself. I know the courts would have a different opinion on that, but that does not change my view on what I feel is needed to protect myself, my family and my property.

Finally, I should have called the police immediately after this occurred. I know that and it was told to me by everyone I spoke to. This being the first time I've actually had to draw my weapon in defense, I regrettably felt like I was in the right and it was incumbent on me as to if I wanted to press charges for the assault. It honestly never occurred to me that these individuals would later call the police since they were obviously the instigators. So much for my faith in humanity? I am thankful that I was vindicated and in speaking with the officer over the course of this, I was glad to know that his impression was that they obviously fabricated some version of events and portrayed me as someone I'm not. This was offset by my encounter with the police at my home where they saw me as a rational and coherent individual, the complete opposite of what I was described as.

Superlite27 said:

Congratulations on the successful outcome. I agree that calling the police would have probably been in your best interest. By letting the incident go and assuming that it was over, you allowed the other party to frame the incident and be the complainant causing the police to question your version. Luckily, the truth was discovered, but there was nothing to prevent the other driver from "imbellishing" and "setting the tone".

By calling the cops and providing a report, it would have allowed whatever law enforcement agent that handled the "incident" to already have an idea of YOUR side of the story.

I wouldn't necessarily describe it as the "best defense is a strong offense"...(perspective is always a strange animal). The other driver might very well have thought he was a victim. I'm sure he probably wasn't familiar with definitions of aggressor/defender and requirements of carrying. His ignorance means nothing. Allowing him to call the cops and say, "Hey! This guy pulled a gun on me! Here's his license plate number." without any frame of reference previously given to police allows HIM to define the incident regardless of how intentionally or unintentionally accurate, or inaccurate.

You obviously felt threatened enough to draw your firearm. Fortunately, the situation ended without you reaching the threshold to actually use lethal force. However, in my opinion, being the one to report an incident in which I felt threatened would be preferable to waiting for someone else, who's perspective might be different than mine, to define the issue.

Do you imagine his version included him following you into the parking lot? My guess is, this small detail might have been omitted in the other guy's version which may have started, midstream, with "My friends and I were in this parking lot when......."

Otherwise, I'm happy that the outcome ended favorably for you. Thanks for sharing it. Hopefully, it helps others to think about things they would do if faced with a similar situation. It caused me to think about what different choices I would have made. Hope you don't take my input as anything critical. I'm just simply sharing my opinion.

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Thank you for your comments. I agree with everything you've said. And yes, in retrospect, it makes you think about how to handle it differently and is something I've thought about everyday, and will continue to.

From the description given, I don't think it would have been smart to leave the lot in your car either. Every indication I picked up on tells me that they would have followed you, which is probably much more dangerous than staying put. Perhaps a call to 911 from the lot, during the incident would have been effective?

Easy to play quarterback on Monday morning!

TFred

So is this a type of situation where you should talk to the cops without your lawyer present?

optiksguy said:

So is this a type of situation where you should talk to the cops without your lawyer present?

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Seams to me a voice recorder would have helped also. The recording of them yelling and acting like a jacka$$ would be a good thing.

I'm glade everything turned out as it did.

optiksguy said:

So is this a type of situation where you should talk to the cops without your lawyer present?

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That's a matter of opinion and is sharply divided here.
In this case it may have helped, but as a general rule I hold with never talk to the cops.

Wolf_shadow said:

Seams to me a voice recorder would have helped also. The recording of them yelling and acting like a jacka$$ would be a good thing.

I'm glade everything turned out as it did.

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Agreed - a recording of the incident would have been most beneficial - cheap insurance.

In my previously posted question, which I don't think I worded quite precisely enough, I meant to ask: In your conversations with User, were there any suggestions given on how to perhaps have better handled it, purely from a legal point of view.

From a tactical/moral/defense point of view, we could each apply our own standards to the story and collectively "Monday morning quarterback" it to death, but that's not what I was aiming for.

This is an example of the right result happening the way it should have. The reason we get apprehensive about such incidents is that very often The System is unreasonable, arbitrary, and capricious. But still, the best you can do is the best you can do, and you have to do as well as you can and hope things work out ok. "Be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves."

Please elaborate on why driving away from the situation was not a good option. The son was out of the car and approaching. The situation was clearly escalating.

They BGs may well have followed, but driving away would have significantly reduced the possibility of violence. Had they continued to follow, OP could have led them to a police station, while calling 911 to report the aggressive behavior.

How would this have unfolded, if the BGs had also been armed? OP gave them justification to fire at him.

Better to never let it get to that point ... IMHO.

Were charges brought against these individuals? From your report it sounds like these guys have have no fear even when confronted with possible deadly force. And they most likely have behaved like this before and will most likely do this again to someone else who might not be prepared as you were. If their actions go on without consequence, I fear for someone's wife, daughter, or elderly parents who might accidentally cut them off or take a parking spot they wanted, or god forbid honk at them.

I am very glad things worked out for you in this situation. Your experience made me stop and think. I probably would have done very similar to what you did. But with this education I've gained from your experience I feel more prepared. Thank you for sharing.

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VanillaBK said:

Were charges brought against these individuals? From your report it sounds like these guys have have no fear even when confronted with possible deadly force. And they most likely have behaved like this before and will most likely do this again to someone else who might not be prepared as you were. If their actions go on without consequence, I fear for someone's wife, daughter, or elderly parents who might accidentally cut them off or take a parking spot they wanted, or god forbid honk at them.

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Can't save the world Idaho!

Physician, heal thy self!

peter nap said:

Can't save the world Idaho!

Physician, heal thy self!

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You're right, first responsibility is to ourselves.

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They were unarmed, however, you were told you should NOT have drawn your weapon? I suppose the fact you got out of your car might be construed as aggressive, however, based on the facts and not "their" version of the incident.

It seems that if they both got out of the vehicle you could have driven away. How does stand your ground apply here? I have my own thoughts on this but am curious to here everyones viewpoint.

Glad it ended well for you.

mtbinva said:

They were unarmed, however, you were told you should NOT have drawn your weapon? I suppose the fact you got out of your car might be construed as aggressive, however, based on the facts and not "their" version of the incident.

It seems that if they both got out of the vehicle you could have driven away. How does stand your ground apply here? I have my own thoughts on this but am curious to here everyones viewpoint.

Glad it ended well for you.

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I'll tell you a true story about how to handle situations like that and how not to.

I was a passenger in the car with one of our more famous members.
We had already had an altercation with two people of questionable character and were parked in the car about a hundred yards from them.

I saw them start walking toward the car. (How not to react) I said "Sit tight, I'll take care of those Sons of B*&$%es).

(How to react.) He said "No, it's always best to avoid those problems", Started the car and drove away.

I have a real problem driving away....but I've ever claimed to be the smartest person on earth and many times it would have saved me a lot of trouble :uhoh:

USNA69 said:

Had they continued to follow, OP could have led them to a police station, while calling 911 to report the aggressive behavior.

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what about when you're in an area not that familiar to you and don't know where the cop shop is? what if you are in a familiar area and you do know where it is?

lotta juggling to do starting up the voice recorder, dialing 911, firing up google maps to search for the nearest police station AND driving away.
should you drive aggressively away, or follow all applicable motor vehicle laws in your escape with traffic lights, left turns on busy intersections, no passing and school zones between your location and the safety bubble of the police dept. parking lot?

just wonderin' how you'd handle it skipper.