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Thread: Well, I pissed off a cop

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    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
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    Well, I pissed off a cop

    I'm working on an ambulance with a sheriff of some county and we got to talking about me getting pulled over and my firearm being taken and ran by the officer and he told me he would have arrested me for a) underage possession of a handgun (I am 19) and b) having a concealed firearm without a permit.

    Well, I guess I pissed him off because I found the code of law and read it to him regarding possession of a firearm and then I read the law about not needing a chp to carry in a container in my vehicle. He was not happy, thought I was raising my voice and threatened to throw me off "his" ambulance for raising my voice.

    I'm sorry, but it's these officers that "know the law" but really don't that cause problems. I didn't think there were any more of these guys out there but I'm sure glad he didn't pull me over.

    Anyway, be safe, know your laws and codes, be calm and collective and don't raise your voice, even if your ambulance is really loud.

  2. #2
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
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    By the way, I actually had a good experience with the state trooper that pulled me over, very polite and actually knew the laws, even if he illegally ran my gun, it was probably my fault for not stepping up and saying no.

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    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
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    I will definitely try to make it, always nice to meet up with like minded people.

    Do you think the vcdl would educated said sheriff's office deputes about gun laws in Virginia?

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    I will definitely try to make it, always nice to meet up with like minded people.

    Do you think the vcdl would educated said sheriff's office deputes about gun laws in Virginia?
    We have worked with a number of LEA to help in getting their training bulletins up to date and to foster a better relationship between the public and their departments.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

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  6. #6
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    We have worked with a number of LEA to help in getting their training bulletins up to date and to foster a better relationship between the public and their departments.
    Well, I guess we can add spotsy to the list of Lea that need continuing education.

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    Better to be pissed off, than pissed on

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    Well, I pissed off a cop
    Welcome to the club.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

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    Regular Member USNA69's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    I'm working on an ambulance with a sheriff of some county and we got to talking about me getting pulled over and my firearm being taken and ran by the officer and he told me he would have arrested me for a) underage possession of a handgun (I am 19) and b) having a concealed firearm without a permit.

    Well, I guess I pissed him off because I found the code of law and read it to him regarding possession of a firearm and then I read the law about not needing a chp to carry in a container in my vehicle. He was not happy, thought I was raising my voice and threatened to throw me off "his" ambulance for raising my voice.

    I'm sorry, but it's these officers that "know the law" but really don't that cause problems. I didn't think there were any more of these guys out there but I'm sure glad he didn't pull me over.

    Anyway, be safe, know your laws and codes, be calm and collective and don't raise your voice, even if your ambulance is really loud.
    Actually, he should have thanked you for saving him from a really nasty lawsuit somewhere down the road.

  10. #10
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
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    I'm not going to change his beliefs on the laws but hopefully he will do the right thing and ask a superior officer when be goes back to work Monday.

    On a side note, I really hope my decision to open carry doesn't affect my chances of getting hired with a LE agency shortly down the road. I think my open ended views will actually help e be a better officer but we'll see.

  11. #11
    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Sounds to me like that cop has a personal problem. My suggestion, don't go trying to solve other people's personal problems. "Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample your pearls underfoot and turn to gore you." It is not necessary to respond to those cops who are full of "stuff" and who are just trying to provoke you so they'll get a chance to beat on someone. If you're right, you're right, and there's no point in trying to persuade them. In this case, "I beg your pardon, Officer, but I think I am acting within my rights." would suffice. If he's going to arrest you, he's going to arrest you, and talking to him (and reacting to his "stuff") will only give him the probable cause he otherwise lacks.

    By the way, I suspect they have some means for associating the make, model, and serial number of the gun in a database somewhere with its owner, creating a gun-registry of a sort. I'd bet they figure that if a gun shows up in a crime someday that'll give them a "suspect". I don't believe that stuff about "checking to see whether the gun's been reported as stolen" for a minute.
    Last edited by user; 02-10-2013 at 07:30 AM.
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  12. #12
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    Well, I guess we can add spotsy to the list of Lea that need continuing education.
    Are you saying this was the sheriff of Spotsylvania County?

    TFred

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    Next time, just disassemble and give him the barrel ...

  14. #14
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    Are you saying this was the sheriff of Spotsylvania County?

    TFred
    Ni, it was a rookie deputy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    SNIP Sounds to me like that cop has a personal problem. My suggestion, don't go trying to solve other people's personal problems. "Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample your pearls underfoot and turn to gore you." It is not necessary to respond to those cops who are full of "stuff" and who are just trying to provoke you so they'll get a chance to beat on someone. If you're right, you're right, and there's no point in trying to persuade them. In this case, "I beg your pardon, Officer, but I think I am acting within my rights." would suffice. If he's going to arrest you, he's going to arrest you, and talking to him (and reacting to his "stuff") will only give him the probable cause he otherwise lacks.
    Sage advice.
    Last edited by Citizen; 02-10-2013 at 11:01 AM.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    I'm not going to change his beliefs on the laws but hopefully he will do the right thing and ask a superior officer when be goes back to work Monday.

    On a side note, I really hope my decision to open carry doesn't affect my chances of getting hired with a LE agency shortly down the road. I think my open ended views will actually help e be a better officer but we'll see.
    If he does speak with a superior officer and manages to relate the tale as you have here, I'd be surprised if that superior doesn't remind him that someday he might be in need of your skills, perhaps as a result of ******* off someone with whom he's had a less than amicable encounter.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  17. #17
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    Sounds to me like that cop has a personal problem. My suggestion, don't go trying to solve other people's personal problems. "Cast not your pearls before swine, lest they trample your pearls underfoot and turn to gore you." It is not necessary to respond to those cops who are full of "stuff" and who are just trying to provoke you so they'll get a chance to beat on someone. If you're right, you're right, and there's no point in trying to persuade them. In this case, "I beg your pardon, Officer, but I think I am acting within my rights." would suffice. If he's going to arrest you, he's going to arrest you, and talking to him (and reacting to his "stuff") will only give him the probable cause he otherwise lacks.

    By the way, I suspect they have some means for associating the make, model, and serial number of the gun in a database somewhere with its owner, creating a gun-registry of a sort. I'd bet they figure that if a gun shows up in a crime someday that'll give them a "suspect". I don't believe that stuff about "checking to see whether the gun's been reported as stolen" for a minute.
    This is the answer. I really wish I could have exercised a little more control. But at the time, in my mind, it was either tell him the law or be a felon in his eyes.

    I just decided to keep 18.2-308 subsection 10 close on hand. I think it just upsetted him that could quote law and he couldn't.

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    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    By the way, I suspect they have some means for associating the make, model, and serial number of the gun in a database somewhere with its owner, creating a gun-registry of a sort. I'd bet they figure that if a gun shows up in a crime someday that'll give them a "suspect". I don't believe that stuff about "checking to see whether the gun's been reported as stolen" for a minute.
    So, let me get this straight. I go to BUY a (used) gun from a dealer, and they use the excuse of checking MY background, in a records check I PAY FOR, to see if the gun the dealer previously bought or received in trade from someone else, is STOLEN or not? What kind of trick is that?

    If the law wants to know if the gun is stolen or not, WHY don't they require the dealer to check the serial number on the gun when he agrees to buy it, while the potential thief or fencer is still standing right there? This current process makes no sense to me. (I'm quoting here from User's previous post which outlines this expressed "logic" by the LEAs.)
    VCDL, Army Vet, Virginia Native

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99
    I actually had a good experience with the state trooper that pulled me over, very polite and actually knew the laws, even if he illegally ran my gun, it was probably my fault for not stepping up and saying no.
    The responsibility for commiting the crime lies with the criminal, not the victim.
    And no matter how polite the criminal is, he's still a criminal.
    If he'd actually known the laws, he wouldn't have illegally run the serial #.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99
    hopefully he will do the right thing and ask a superior officer when be goes back to work Monday.
    The couple times I've amicably discussed gun laws with cops, over a cup of coffee in my favorite little coffee shop, I've explained the law then told them not to just believe what I say, go back to the station & look things up for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99
    in my mind, it was either tell him the law or be a felon in his eyes.
    While it would be nice to have him come around to the right way of thinking (both for your happiness & so he doesn't get involved in a lawsuit that will cost the taxpayers) why do you care what he thinks of you?
    Are you going to be working closely with him, or does he have some influence over your current or future job?
    If he wrongfully arrests you, it would probably be a mess to work through [DAMHIK], but you'd be on the winning end, & there are some 2A friendly civil rights lawyers out there.
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    Regular Member zoom6zoom's Avatar
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    So, let me get this straight. I go to BUY a (used) gun from a dealer, and they use the excuse of checking MY background, in a records check I PAY FOR, to see if the gun the dealer previously bought or received in trade from someone else, is STOLEN or not? What kind of trick is that?
    Background check at a dealer isn't running the gun, it's checking out the BUYER. The Virginia form doesn't even include serial number or make.

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    I was referring to the law enforcement practice of removing citizens' guns from their persons or vehicles during investigatory stops or traffic violations and "checking the serial numbers to see whether it's been stolen". Nothing whatsoever to do with dealers or background checks. And that's just a suspicion, you know, no evidence to back it up. Clearly you don't get stopped by the cops much, which is to your credit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Virginia Joe View Post
    So, let me get this straight. I go to BUY a (used) gun from a dealer, and they use the excuse of checking MY background, in a records check I PAY FOR, to see if the gun the dealer previously bought or received in trade from someone else, is STOLEN or not? What kind of trick is that?

    If the law wants to know if the gun is stolen or not, WHY don't they require the dealer to check the serial number on the gun when he agrees to buy it, while the potential thief or fencer is still standing right there? This current process makes no sense to me. (I'm quoting here from User's previous post which outlines this expressed "logic" by the LEAs.)
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member Old Virginia Joe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I was referring to the law enforcement practice of removing citizens' guns from their persons or vehicles during investigatory stops or traffic violations and "checking the serial numbers to see whether it's been stolen". Nothing whatsoever to do with dealers or background checks. And that's just a suspicion, you know, no evidence to back it up. Clearly you don't get stopped by the cops much, which is to your credit.
    OK, I was blending this thread with TFred's current post about Form 4473, and how they (Feds) 'are' "taking the make, model, and serial numbers of the guns purchased." See below:

    Form 4473: Serial Numbers (by TFred)
    This may end up moved, but I'll start it here. The big news lately is universal background checks. On the face of it, they don't sound too bad, until you learn that the feds have been taking the make, model and serial numbers of the guns purchased. If there is ANYone stupid enough to believe that they follow the law and do not keep this information, well, that's why they invented Velcro. Here's my question: If one were to not fill in the serial number on the Form 4473, what would happen? Would a dealer (I realize some would not, but would any?) submit the form without the number? I assume if it were submitted, would the submission be rejected as incomplete? That is my suspicion. Is there a basis in the law that justifies the serial number be a required element of the background check? I wouldn't lobby for it, but a background check that was truly just that, with no identifying gun information, would not be as bad as what they are pushing for now. Of course, without tying the background check to a specific gun, there is no way to prove that the check was done for any gun you have in your possession, so it becomes rather useless for the government with regard to enforcement. Thoughts?
    TFred ETA: I think I have just outlined the proof that a universal background check is indeed actually a universal gun registration!

    So, are you saying Virginia form does not do what TFred says it (the Feds) does? I don't know, as I haven't bought anything lately. Maybe the Fed form is different from the state form? Anyone, please clear this up? Thanks.
    VCDL, Army Vet, Virginia Native

    Hey, Libtards, it's the "Bill of Rights," not the "Bill of Needs" . . . . .

    If the 2A does not apply to modern weapons, then the 1A does not apply to modern communications like the Internet! How do you like them apples!?

  23. #23
    Regular Member JesterP99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I was referring to the law enforcement practice of removing citizens' guns from their persons or vehicles during investigatory stops or traffic violations and "checking the serial numbers to see whether it's been stolen". Nothing whatsoever to do with dealers or background checks. And that's just a suspicion, you know, no evidence to back it up. Clearly you don't get stopped by the cops much, which is to your credit.
    So a police officer taking my gun and "securing it" in his vehicle/running the serial is not legal? If you get arrested for having a concealed weapon in your vehicle and the officer searches your vehicle without your consent (and the officer has reasonable suspicion based on the "concealed weapon") and finds something illegal in your car, does that search and that charge for whatever they find get thrown out?

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    So a police officer taking my gun and "securing it" in his vehicle/running the serial is not legal? If you get arrested for having a concealed weapon in your vehicle and the officer searches your vehicle without your consent (and the officer has reasonable suspicion based on the "concealed weapon") and finds something illegal in your car, does that search and that charge for whatever they find get thrown out?
    You can't be arrested for "having a concealed weapon" where your possession of a "concealed weapon" is the basis for "reasonable suspicion". The cop needs something else to establish a "reasonable suspicion" which would cause him to conduct a search and discover the "(illegally) concealed weapon" (Terry v Ohio).

    Stolen firearms, like anything else, can only be identified if they've been reported stolen by their owners.

    Some believe that a gun so checked ends up recorded in a list of "traced guns", but I have no basis to support that.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by JesterP99 View Post
    So a police officer taking my gun and "securing it" in his vehicle/running the serial is not legal? If you get arrested for having a concealed weapon in your vehicle and the officer searches your vehicle without your consent (and the officer has reasonable suspicion based on the "concealed weapon") and finds something illegal in your car, does that search and that charge for whatever they find get thrown out?
    He didn't say it wasn't legal. See a case called Arizona vs Hicks. That opinion references a number of relevant points.

    If you're arrested, and the vehicle needs to be towed, your vehicle is gonna get searched under the vehicle inventory search exception to the warrant clause. I've only read maybe two cases where the contraband discovered during the inventory was thrown out--mainly because the evidence that the inventory search was a pretext was judicially unavoidable. For example, in one case the cop claimed he was inventorying the cars contents, yet his dashcam video showed him doing it without writing down even one item in the car.

    Also, there is a relatively recent US Supreme Court case, Gant, that addresses car searches done incident to arrest. The short story is that a search of the person and the immediate area at the time of his arrest seems to be sanctioned by the courts under a recognized exception to the warrant clause. You'll see this type of search referred to as a search incident. Short for search incident to arrest. Gant placed restrictions on vehicle searches incident to arrest.

    Now, lets say the cop arrests you in your car for having a concealed handgun in violation of a statute. Then, for example, he searches your car and plants drugs. If he's dumb enough to tell the judge he was searching for drugs, the drugs may very well be suppressed. But, if he's smart and tells the judge he was searching for another concealed handgun--evidence related to the first offense--the judge might let the drug evidence stand. Gant has many of the details.

    Now, if you really did have drugs in the car, and the cop didn't search for another concealed handgun, the drugs will likely be found later when the car's contents are inventoried. Drugs found that way are pretty much guaranteed to be admitted as evidence.
    I'll make you an offer: I will argue and fight for all of your rights, if you will do the same for me. That is the only way freedom can work. We have to respect all rights, all the time--and strive to win the rights of the other guy as much as for ourselves.

    If I am equal to another, how can I legitimately govern him without his express individual consent?

    There is no human being on earth I hate so much I would actually vote to inflict government upon him.

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