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Thread: Gun law Lawyer ?

  1. #1
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    Gun law Lawyer ?

    Does anyone have a name of a gun law Lawyer near Holland that could help me with a CPL appeal ? Does anyone know roughly what I'm going to have to spend ?
    Last edited by casper; 05-08-2013 at 02:47 PM.

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Hi fellow west Michigander!
    try here. www.ledford-law.com
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Thanks Pard.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Does anyone have a name of a gun law Lawyer near Holland that could help me with an appeal ? Does anyone know roughly what I'm going to have to spend ?
    Casper - If you send the Q a private message PM. He may tell you the steps you can take without hiring a lawyer to get this heard in front of a judge. If you have no criminal record that would keep you from having a CPL or have never been judged mentally unfit etc... The judge will simply issue a order for the board to grant your CPL. Have you made some kind of political enemies with the board members or one of their cronies maybe? Or do you have a crazy Ex who is writing them letters telling them you are the next son of sam killer in waiting...? Taking what you posted on its face this sounds like some sort of payback/lesson being taught by those who swore an oath to uphold the law - then quickly forgot it... Many gun boards in MI play games it sounds like yours maybe one of them.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-11-2013 at 10:26 PM. Reason: son of sam
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    Thank you as well, I will do that. Do I PM Q ?
    Last edited by casper; 02-11-2013 at 10:37 PM.

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    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Yes - the easy way to do that is to go to a thread he just posted in (new sb59 concerns) and click on his name next to the little circle that will be green if he's logged in. He knows all the technical jargon - but basically you have to know the Latin name of the court document to file.
    Last edited by FreeInAZ; 02-11-2013 at 10:54 PM. Reason: sorry wrong thread title fixed it for you
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    "You must be the change you wish to see in the world" by Mahatma Gandhi

    “Your beliefs become your thoughts. Your thoughts become your words. Your words become your actions. Your actions become your habits. Your habits become your values. Your values become your destiny.” by Mahatma Gandhi

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    Does anyone know of anyone else ? ledford law wants 3 grand to start.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Does anyone know of anyone else ? ledford law wants 3 grand to start.
    hire one on contingency ... he can borrow your permit one a month !

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Gun law Lawyer ?

    An appeal for what?

    I'd not suggest anyone tackle the legal system without representation without a lawyer unless you are well studied on applicable laws, case law, and court procedures.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Steve Dulan. http://www.stevenwdulan.com/Attorney.htm

    Arguably one of the best gun law attorneys in the state.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    An appeal for what?

    I'd not suggest anyone tackle the legal system without representation without a lawyer unless you are well studied on applicable laws, case law, and court procedures.
    CPL denial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    hire one on contingency ... he can borrow your permit one a month !
    I don't understand, please explain.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Gun law Lawyer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    I don't understand, please explain.
    I think it was a joke.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Ok, thanks Phil. In the future guys, please no jokes. This is very important and serious to me, thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Ok, thanks Phil. In the future guys, please no jokes. This is very important and serious to me, thanks.
    Well, a lawyer is likely going to cost between 3K-10K .... may Q can offer some pro-se advice

    My advice, if you have never been through an administrative procedure, is if a lawyer will take 1K for the entire case process then jump on it -- READ your retainer agreement well and understand it.

  16. #16
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Gun law Lawyer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    Well, a lawyer is likely going to cost between 3K-10K .... may Q can offer some pro-se advice

    My advice, if you have never been through an administrative procedure, is if a lawyer will take 1K for the entire case process then jump on it -- READ your retainer agreement well and understand it.
    I'm not in the business of teaching law or administrative procedures -- either for free or for profit.

    I feel comfortable enough with my own understanding I'd probably handle my own personal CPL appeal proceeding. I don't intend to get in the business or practice if teaching others what I've learned thus far.

    Sound dickish? Sorry. I've spent hundreds of hours in my own research and understanding. I have neither the time, energy, nor inclination to impart that into others.

    Q isn't anyone's personal genie. =\
    Last edited by TheQ; 05-08-2013 at 05:05 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I'm not in the business of teaching law or administrative procedures -- either for free or for profit.

    I feel comfortable enough with my own understanding I'd probably handle my own personal CPL appeal proceeding. I don't intend to get in the business or practice if teaching others what I've learned thus far.

    Sound dickish? Sorry. I've spent hundreds of hours in my own research and understanding. I have neither the time, energy, nor inclination to impart that into others.

    Q isn't anyone's personal genie. =\
    Doesn't sound "dickish" to me ....

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    Here's my pro-se advice: Hire an attorney.

    An attorney worth his salt will provide a complimentary consultation either in-person or over the phone. If he's a gun lawyer, he'll tell you in that consultatino what your chances of winning are (and in the arena of CPLs, case law is pretty cut-and-dry).

    If he thinks you'll win an appeal then pay the man and get your CPL.

    If he thinks you'll lose it, then you're out the $105, and that's all she wrote. You're wasting your own time to appeal yourself.

    If it's not worth it to you to hire a professional, then you can take your chances without one. $3k is the cost of doing business with an attorney.

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    It's not a matter of worth it, I would pay it if I had it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    It's not a matter of worth it, I would pay it if I had it.
    If you are looking for a free services you won't find any .... learn the process yourself ... its generally not an outrageous process -- they follow pretty normal admin procedures and it should be somewhat documented on the process.

    good luck

    This is why I don't think that ANY permit should be required -- we have a right to keep and BEAR arms ... there should be no hurdles in these activities

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    I'm not in the business of teaching law or administrative procedures -- either for free or for profit.

    I feel comfortable enough with my own understanding I'd probably handle my own personal CPL appeal proceeding. I don't intend to get in the business or practice if teaching others what I've learned thus far.

    Sound dickish? Sorry. I've spent hundreds of hours in my own research and understanding. I have neither the time, energy, nor inclination to impart that into others.

    Q isn't anyone's personal genie. =\
    I wonder how much information you gained here at first, that others spent hundreds of hours learning. Just saying. And every time you cite a law here to someone that asks a question, you are in fact teaching them that law. Every time you advise someone how to proceed against a city ordinance you are teaching administrative procedure. Sorry if I sound "dickish" but I thought that is what this site was for, to teach others the laws so they don't get jammed up, to help them if they have questions about the laws. Guess I was wrong.
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 05-09-2013 at 12:19 AM.
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    Regular Member Rick H's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Does anyone have a name of a gun law Lawyer near Holland that could help me with a CPL appeal ? Does anyone know roughly what I'm going to have to spend ?
    I'm not sure the reason for your denied permission slip but, I too was denied because
    In my early years I was charged with two felonies but dropped one to a misdemeanor and
    the other was dismissed. Now what I had to do was get the court records and emailed them
    to the department of agriculture lady I was talking with , she then pulled up my application
    and approved me right on the spot while i was talking to her on the phone and sent me mine
    by next day mail which I got the very next day. Now the charges were in Michigan but the
    permit Is in Florida. I hope that's the case for you as well
    God Bless America.

  23. #23
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick H View Post
    I'm not sure the reason for your denied permission slip but, I too was denied because
    In my early years I was charged with two felonies but dropped one to a misdemeanor and
    the other was dismissed. Now what I had to do was get the court records and emailed them
    to the department of agriculture lady I was talking with , she then pulled up my application
    and approved me right on the spot while i was talking to her on the phone and sent me mine
    by next day mail which I got the very next day. Now the charges were in Michigan but the
    permit Is in Florida. I hope that's the case for you as well
    Nice to see some potentially useful information posted, thanks.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

  24. #24
    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    28.425b

    . . .

    (13) Subject to subsections (10) and (14), the concealed weapon licensing board shall issue or deny issuance of a license within 45 days after the concealed weapon licensing board receives the fingerprint comparison report provided under subsection (10). If the concealed weapon licensing board denies issuance of a license to carry a concealed pistol, the concealed weapon licensing board shall within 5 business days do both of the following:

    (a) Inform the applicant in writing of the reasons for the denial. Information under this subdivision shall include all of the following:


    (i) A statement of the specific and articulable facts supporting the denial.


    (ii) Copies of any writings, photographs, records, or other documentary evidence upon which the denial is based.


    (b) Inform the applicant in writing of his or her right to appeal the denial to the circuit court as provided in section 5d.

    . . .


    It would seem that the first step would be finding out WHY you were denied so you can gather the relevant paperwork to refute their claims.

    Bear in mind that if you appeal and the court finds your appeal "frivolous," i.e., documents/data show that you were clearly not eligible to receive a CPL under the law, that you will be required to pay all of the court & attorney fees of the concealed weapons licensing board.


    28.425d

    (1) If the concealed weapon licensing board denies issuance of a license to carry a concealed pistol, or fails to issue that license as provided in this act, the applicant may appeal the denial or the failure to issue the license to the circuit court in the judicial circuit in which he or she resides. The appeal of the denial or failure to issue a license shall be determined by a review of the record for error, except that if the decision of the concealed weapon licensing board was based upon grounds specified in section 5b(7)(n) that portion of the appeal shall be by hearing de novo. Witnesses in the hearing shall be sworn. A jury shall not be provided in a hearing under this section.

    (2) If the court determines that the denial or failure to issue a license was clearly erroneous, the court shall order the concealed weapon licensing board to issue a license as required by this act.

    (3) If the court determines that the decision of the concealed weapon licensing board to deny issuance of a license to an applicant was arbitrary and capricious, the court shall order this state to pay 1/3 and the county in which the concealed weapon licensing board is located to pay 2/3 of the actual costs and actual attorney fees of the applicant in appealing the denial.

    (4) If the court determines that an applicant's appeal was frivolous, the court shall order the applicant to pay the actual costs and actual attorney fees of the concealed weapon licensing board in responding to the appeal.
    First, find out why you were denied. Proceed from there.

    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 05-09-2013 at 07:27 AM.
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Gun law Lawyer ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    I wonder how much information you gained here at first, that others spent hundreds of hours learning. Just saying. And every time you cite a law here to someone that asks a question, you are in fact teaching them that law. Every time you advise someone how to proceed against a city ordinance you are teaching administrative procedure. Sorry if I sound "dickish" but I thought that is what this site was for, to teach others the laws so they don't get jammed up, to help them if they have questions about the laws. Guess I was wrong.
    Sure is. And I do that a lot. It's not my responsibility to teach any person how to handle their individual case though. No more than it's DrTodd's responsibility. He knows a lot yet why wasn't his name mentioned...or DanM, or Bronson.
    Last edited by TheQ; 05-09-2013 at 07:56 AM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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