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Thread: Are we not on the same side ?

  1. #1
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    Are we not on the same side ?

    It seams like we have all these gun rights, but when we use them, law enforcement is there to try and nail us for something. Are we not on the same side ?
    Last edited by casper; 02-12-2013 at 04:24 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    It seams like we have all these gun rights, but when we use them, law enforcement is there to try and nail us for something. Are we not on the same side ?
    Some people seem to attract the wrong kind attention, either by design or ignorance.

    The overwhelming majority of folks OC with no drama at all, others seem to live for the drama. Others are simply clueless about how their actions or appearance influence the average (unarmed) person.

    There are some people who are so completely 'out there', by ignorance or intent, that I will avoid them at all costs.

    Examine your motives, consider your steps. People are watching, and making judgments about us all. And, above all, don't be 'that guy', who intentionally baits LEOs, so they can post their pathetic videos on Youtube.....

    Are you carrying for self defense, or ego?
    Last edited by Shadow Bear; 02-12-2013 at 05:05 PM.
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Now, stand back & watch the 'It shouldn't matter' squad try to defend their poor PR skills....
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    "Law Enforcement Officer" is a title, not a job description.

    You know, like "Patriot Act."
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    In theory it should not matter, in reality it most definitely does matter. If you are dressed in camo and carryin an AR and are not a member of active military maneuvers perhaps you are making people think negatively about gun owners. I personally will not open carry unless I am dressed fairly well and I do not mean a shirt and tie or a suit. I have only had one encounter with police in GR and it was not a big deal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    Now, stand back & watch the 'It shouldn't matter' squad try to defend their poor PR skills....
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  6. #6
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    If you are dressed in camo and carryin an AR and are not a member of active military maneuvers perhaps you are making people think negatively about gun owners.
    Yep.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." – William F. Buckley
    "...go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." – Samuel Adams
    Wheels

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    It seams like we have all these gun rights, but when we use them, law enforcement is there to try and nail us for something. Are we not on the same side ?
    I don't think any of the above posts have addressed what you actually posted.

    LEOs in Michigan, generally, have "got the memo" on OC and your experiences normally will be 99.9% free of LEO interaction problems. Generally, you do not need to carry with you a fear that there will be many attempts to "nail" you. Or, as LEOs like to say to each other, "jam you up". Now, that being said, unfortunately due to there being rogue LEOs out there, it is incumbent upon OC'ers to treat LEO interactions cautiously. Be polite, and it's ok to respond to some questions, but you've got to know when to recognize a LEO is on a fishing expedition with you, and you need to politely say to the officer, "Sir, I've got business to take care of, so if you're not detaining me, I have to be moving along." And repeat that.

    Most LEOs on the street consider legal gun carriers to be "on the same side" as them, with respect to their view of us as people who respect the laws they must enforce. Again, rookie or rogue officers are a different breed, but they don't represent most LEOs.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Fallschirmjäger's Avatar
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    Well, we might be on 'their' side, but I can with confidence say that some of them are not on 'our' side.
    1).. Salt Lake City Police Chief Chris Burbank

    ... and I believe there was a thread I replied to earlier, in much the same vein (which can't be found at this moment) with much the same "we carry to intimidate" from another department head.
    Last edited by Fallschirmjäger; 02-13-2013 at 01:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    I don't think any of the above posts have addressed what you actually posted.

    LEOs in Michigan, generally, have "got the memo" on OC and your experiences normally will be 99.9% free of LEO interaction problems. Generally, you do not need to carry with you a fear that there will be many attempts to "nail" you. Or, as LEOs like to say to each other, "jam you up". Now, that being said, unfortunately due to there being rogue LEOs out there, it is incumbent upon OC'ers to treat LEO interactions cautiously. Be polite, and it's ok to respond to some questions, but you've got to know when to recognize a LEO is on a fishing expedition with you, and you need to politely say to the officer, "Sir, I've got business to take care of, so if you're not detaining me, I have to be moving along." And repeat that.

    Most LEOs on the street consider legal gun carriers to be "on the same side" as them, with respect to their view of us as people who respect the laws they must enforce. Again, rookie or rogue officers are a different breed, but they don't represent most LEOs.
    Thanks Pard.

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    One thing that gets me is when the leo says things like, do you think your cool walking around with a gun, or you think it's fun to scare people. Why do they have to be so sarcastic ?

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    One thing that gets me is when the leo says things like, do you think your cool walking around with a gun, or you think it's fun to scare people. Why do they have to be so sarcastic ?
    Perhaps because they see you as a threat to their dominance, you know, only they are good enough to be armed. I am only speculating since I have never had that kind of negative interaction with a LEO in Michigan.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    One thing that gets me is when the leo says things like, do you think your cool walking around with a gun, or you think it's fun to scare people. Why do they have to be so sarcastic ?
    Some officers doing this may actually have a problem with OC, but most officers are doing what they call an "attitude test". Many times, people who are impaired or have some reason to fear police contact "flunk the attitude test", as the police say. Flunking the attitude test makes a LEO generally suspicious. They will usually continue the consensual encounter as long as the person lets them, attempting to see whether or not they develop some RAS or PC. They don't really have a problem with OC or you, they just want to see how you handle being stressed a little bit.

    I'm not saying I'm OK with LEOs doing this, as it does come off as somewhat rude. But it's not personal most of the time . . . they are just seeing how a "person of interest" to them reacts.
    Last edited by DanM; 02-15-2013 at 11:04 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Some officers doing this may actually have a problem with OC, but most officers are doing what they call an "attitude test". Many times, people who are impaired or have some reason to fear police contact "flunk the attitude test", as the police say. Flunking the attitude test makes a LEO generally suspicious. They will usually continue the consensual encounter as long as the person lets them, attempting to see whether or not they develop some RAS or PC. They don't really have a problem with OC or you, they just want to see how you handle being stressed a little bit.

    I'm not saying I'm OK with LEOs doing this, as it does come off as somewhat rude. But it's not personal most of the time . . . they are just seeing how a "person of interest" to them reacts.
    Yeah, I thought of that too, but we already proved ourselves worthy by being legal to carry. Theres no reason to keep testing us, it's just not right.

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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    Yeah, I thought of that too, but we already proved ourselves worthy by being legal to carry. Theres no reason to keep testing us, it's just not right.
    Upon initial approach, the officer doesn't know you. All he knows is how you react to the attitude test. There is a reason for the attitude test as I explained above. Like I said, I'm not saying it's OK and the reason is good. Just that LEOs sometimes do it, it's mostly not done for personal reasons, and the best thing to do (if you choose to talk to the LEO) is to pass the attitude test.

    I've encountered rude cops during OC and traffic stops. I know the frustration you feel, because I've felt it. The feeling, "I don't deserve this attitude from this guy." But what's made it easier to deal with is being educated that it's a tactic they use to detect bad guys, it's really nothing personal against me.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by DanM View Post
    Upon initial approach, the officer doesn't know you. All he knows is how you react to the attitude test. There is a reason for the attitude test as I explained above. Like I said, I'm not saying it's OK and the reason is good. Just that LEOs sometimes do it, it's mostly not done for personal reasons, and the best thing to do (if you choose to talk to the LEO) is to pass the attitude test.

    I've encountered rude cops during OC and traffic stops. I know the frustration you feel, because I've felt it. The feeling, "I don't deserve this attitude from this guy." But what's made it easier to deal with is being educated that it's a tactic they use to detect bad guys, it's really nothing personal against me.
    Well said, and good point.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by casper View Post
    One thing that gets me is when the leo says things like, do you think your cool walking around with a gun, or you think it's fun to scare people. Why do they have to be so sarcastic ?
    The sad part is that it is not sarcasm. They ask that because that is how THEY feel about carrying a gun.

    (This is not a rule-violating generalization; it only applies to those who would ask such a question.)
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-16-2013 at 01:34 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    Campaign Veteran marshaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fallschirmjäger View Post
    Well, we might be on 'their' side, but I can with confidence say that some of them are not on 'our' side.
    +1

    And if you doubt the veracity of this claim, go peruse the comments over at policeone.com or officer.com. Literally, pick any article, read any comment. You won't have to search at all, unless you're looking for comments not displaying an us-vs-them, anti-citizen attitude.

    For instance, I just did that. First article, first comment. Some guy tried to lunge at a cop with a sword. Nobody got hurt, guy ended up committed to a mental health institution. Apparently that's not good enough for our gestapo, however:

    This type of verdict is EXACTLY why the Dorner case ended the way it should have, with him in a box instead of in front of 12 idiots.
    http://www.policeone.com/edged-weapo...rd-not-guilty/

    Once you cross their line, you no longer have a right to a trial. You're fair game to be murdered.
    Last edited by marshaul; 02-16-2013 at 01:47 PM.

  18. #18
    Michigan Moderator Big Gay Al's Avatar
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    I've been OCing for quite a while now, and I guess I'm one of those people who have so far, not been questioned by police as to why I OC. I've had very few encounters with them while not in uniform, so for the most part, I've never really been bothered by them. Other than when I lived in Lansing, the majority of my encounters with local police were while I was on my way home from work, or to work from home, so I was wearing a security uniform along with my pistol.

    They never gave my weapon a 2nd glance after I informed them I was carrying. I guess I was just lucky, based on some of the stories I've heard, none of them ever took temporary custody of my pistol during any stop. Then again, I never got a ticket either, even though I probably deserved a few. In my experience, it pays to cooperate.
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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    In answer to the question. I think some officers still look at OC as something people do if they can't get a CPL... and the reason they can't get a CPL is because they have committed some serious crime. They also have been erroneously taught that a "man with a gun call" deserves certain specific responses. Although these assumptions are wrong and seriously outdated, they do remain. However, I think that, for the most part, very few will actually choose to follow up their beliefs with behavior. Most just take look at you and go on their way.
    Last edited by DrTodd; 02-19-2013 at 06:41 PM.
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