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Thread: Drafting letter to local school principal

  1. #1
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Drafting letter to local school principal

    Drafting letter to local school principal on the legality of open carry with a CPL in a school. I would like to ask for help from folks here who know more than I and maybe those who have already written a similar letter.

    A letter from the principal cites the veto of Gov Snyder of " new legislation " http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll...CS02/212190361

    and

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...0947--,00.html

    http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(ghx...me=mcl-28-425o

    Any help would be great.

    edit* Also The principal cited school weapon policies found here
    http://www.neola.com/kelloggsville-m...ies/po7217.htm
    Last edited by Raggs; 02-13-2013 at 11:35 AM.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  2. #2
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    I would highlight WHY it would be beneficial .... point out security issues with the bldg ... how easy it is to get into the bldgs ..

    (I would write to all principals and the super of your SD)

    I would go and see how easy it is to get into the schools .. walk around until someone boots you out (if not forever)...you'll likely find you can roam the hallways w/o issue.

    And that a criminal would have been able to do the same but with a gun as he won't follow the laws anyway.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    I will likely add some logical reasons as well, right now though I am looking at the legal side, which is not logical
    Quote Originally Posted by davidmcbeth View Post
    I would highlight WHY it would be beneficial .... point out security issues with the bldg ... how easy it is to get into the bldgs ..

    (I would write to all principals and the super of your SD)

    I would go and see how easy it is to get into the schools .. walk around until someone boots you out (if not forever)...you'll likely find you can roam the hallways w/o issue.

    And that a criminal would have been able to do the same but with a gun as he won't follow the laws anyway.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    I will likely add some logical reasons as well, right now though I am looking at the legal side, which is not logical
    You school administrators are not lawyers ... they don't care about legal arguments regarding this subject matter .. the law is already there

  5. #5
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    They can allow OC only at this time for non LEOs. This allows them:

    750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.Sec. 237a.
    (1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated.
    (b) Community service for not more than 150 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than 3 times the maximum fine authorized for the section violated.
    (2) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(1), 224d, 226a, 227c, 227d, 231c, 232a(1) or (4), 233, 234, 234e, 234f, 235, 236, or 237, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for the first time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated or 93 days, whichever is greater.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00 or the maximum fine authorized for the section violated, whichever is greater.
    (3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to conduct proscribed under a section enumerated in those subsections to the extent that the proscribed conduct is otherwise exempted or authorized under this chapter.
    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
    (a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.
    (b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
    (c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.
    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.
    (e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.
    (f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:
    (i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.
    (ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
    (iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
    (iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  6. #6
    Regular Member xmanhockey7's Avatar
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    I'd point out the fact they're preempted by state law and possibly cite the part in the CADL decision saying public schools are seen the same as public libraries under the law. Possibly bring up the fact the Michigan State Police and the Governor recognize the legality of OC in a PFZ.
    "No state shall convert a liberty to a privilege, license it, and charge a fee therefor.- Murdock vs Pennsylvania 319 US 105

    ...If the state converts a right into a privelege, the citizen can ignore the license and fee and engage in the right... with impunity.
    - Shuttleworth vs City of Birmingham, Alabama 317 US 262

    Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no legislation which would abrogate them.
    - Miranda vs Arizona 384 US 436

  7. #7
    Regular Member FreeInAZ's Avatar
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    Re: Drafting letter to local school principal

    Raggs - What you may run into is school staff who just do not give a flying fudge about the law. Why? Because they know they will not be held accountable for breaking it. They will have their lawyers (if not already doing so) attempt to run some crap by you to see what sticks.

    In the following audio from waterford schools you will hear what you are in for. In the end they basically told Venator to pound sand.

    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=5t7GH...%3D5t7GHCLT15c

    Not trying to discourage you, just be ready for them to tell you to sod off mate.
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  8. #8
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    S draft

    Dear Principal

    I received your letter and due to your misunderstanding of the “open carry permit” I want to take this opportunity to further explain. I have reviewed all of the links you provided. I had read all of these and studied each of them in depth before you furnished them to me. However, you seem to have missed or omitted one: Michigan Compiled Law Excerpt:

    http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7...0926--,00.html

    which in part says

    (4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following …

    (5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
    (a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
    (b) A peace officer.
    (c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
    (e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

    Also you might like to read Michigan State Police here: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    Which will open a pdf from the Michigan state police update
    As provided by law in the State of Michigan, I am legally within my rights to open carry a firearm on school property since I hold a valid Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

    Thank You

    Me
    Last edited by Raggs; 02-13-2013 at 09:23 PM. Reason: using griffin's ideas
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  9. #9
    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Why not use the MSP direct link instead of a google redirect?

    http://www.michigan.gov/documents/ms...2_336854_7.pdf

    I would also say "MCL (Michigan Compiled Law)" not Michigan Penal Code.
    Last edited by griffin; 02-13-2013 at 02:52 PM.
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to."
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    I would quote Larry Pratt who said "no defense, is not the best defense", which is essentially what we have in Michigan schools.

  11. #11
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Another question, any ideas on how to explain the preemption in this letter?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    Another question, any ideas on how to explain the preemption in this letter?
    Since CADL v MOC decision directly affects schools, I'd link to the decision and highlight the pertinent portions.

  13. #13
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    The thing about schools, is that apart from a narrow set of circumstances, such as most notably voting, they can kick anyone out at any time if they aren't a student. Most adults don't have a right to be at a school, it's more of a privilege.

    So that said, I wouldn't worry about moral arguments and such. Just let them know that when a CPL holding adult has a right to be at their school/school system, that person also has a right to be carrying openly. That is all they need to know.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Such as parent teacher conferences or any time the parent is asked to come to the school to meet with a teacher or the principal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    The thing about schools, is that apart from a narrow set of circumstances, such as most notably voting, they can kick anyone out at any time if they aren't a student. Most adults don't have a right to be at a school, it's more of a privilege.

    So that said, I wouldn't worry about moral arguments and such. Just let them know that when a CPL holding adult has a right to be at their school/school system, that person also has a right to be carrying openly. That is all they need to know.
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  15. #15
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Exactly.
    Last edited by Michigander; 02-15-2013 at 08:40 PM.

  16. #16
    Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter Venator's Avatar
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    Sporting events too. Many people go to them and don't have kids enrolled.
    An Amazon best seller "MY PARENTS OPEN CARRY" http://www.myparentsopencarry.com/

    *The information contained above is not meant to be legal advice, but is solely intended as a starting point for further research. These are my opinions, if you have further questions it is advisable to seek out an attorney that is well versed in firearm law.

  17. #17
    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Certainly preemption reads as though it stops schools from having any blanket policy against CPL holding OC. But do you have a defined right to go to a sporting event? I'd have thought it was still in the realm of a privilege, and thus subject to people being booted out on a case by case basis, even if not as part of an official policy. Even if more or less a preemption violation, it would seem they'd get away with it pretty well.

    Are there any other laws which maybe are relevant here?
    Last edited by Michigander; 02-17-2013 at 01:53 AM.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michigander View Post
    Certainly preemption reads as though it stops schools from having any blanket policy against CPL holding OC. But do you have a defined right to go to a sporting event? I'd have thought it was still in the realm of a privilege, and thus subject to people being booted out on a case by case basis, even if not as part of an official policy. Even if more or less a preemption violation, it would seem they'd get away with it pretty well.

    Are there any other laws which maybe are relevant here?
    Though, theoretically, isn't it your tax dollars paying for said sporting event? In which case, could an argument be made for you having a right to utilize services which you also fund?

  19. #19
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Drafting letter to local school principal

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Though, theoretically, isn't it your tax dollars paying for said sporting event? In which case, could an argument be made for you having a right to utilize services which you also fund?
    Your tax dollars also fund thermal nuclear weapon. Do you have the right to take one of them out for a spin?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  20. #20
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    The carry of a properly holstered and plainly visible firearm into any school these days, without the permission of the "staff" in writing, you should expect to be asked to leave.....and that is the very best possible scenario. I will not delve into any scenario that is not the very best scenario when a school staff member discovers your properly holstered and plainly visible firearm.

    As a side note, expect to be hassled at a minimum by the local news and likely the national news, let alone the local cops, for causing "undue alarm" when the school goes into lock down cuz a school staff member is not as up to speed on the law as you seem to be.

    It seems that your name is "out there" and there is no need to be inconspicuous any further.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  21. #21
    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The carry of a properly holstered and plainly visible firearm into any school these days, without the permission of the "staff" in writing, you should expect to be asked to leave.....and that is the very best possible scenario. I will not delve into any scenario that is not the very best scenario when a school staff member discovers your properly holstered and plainly visible firearm.

    As a side note, expect to be hassled at a minimum by the local news and likely the national news, let alone the local cops, for causing "undue alarm" when the school goes into lock down cuz a school staff member is not as up to speed on the law as you seem to be.

    It seems that your name is "out there" and there is no need to be inconspicuous any further.
    Oh, you do recall that six year olds get suspended from school when they point their finger at another six year old and go "pow".....don't you.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

  22. #22
    Regular Member Evil Creamsicle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Your tax dollars also fund thermal nuclear weapon. Do you have the right to take one of them out for a spin?
    Perhaps not, but, the argument could be made.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Drafting letter to local school principal

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Creamsicle View Post
    Perhaps not, but, the argument could be made.
    Hahahaha. Maybe with the Soviets!
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  24. #24
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Perhaps this thread could get back on track of helping Raggs draft this letter instead of stating the 1001 reasons people think it would fail. I would simply add the highlights of the CADL case upholdong preemption. That realistically is the best you can do short of a more specific ruling regarding preemption and schools.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Drafting letter to local school principal

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    Perhaps this thread could get back on track of helping Raggs draft this letter instead of stating the 1001 reasons people think it would fail. I would simply add the highlights of the CADL case upholdong preemption. That realistically is the best you can do short of a more specific ruling regarding preemption and schools.


    We would do well to keep in mind that CADL is not yet settled caselaw
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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