• We are now running on a new, and hopefully much-improved, server. In addition we are also on new forum software. Any move entails a lot of technical details and I suspect we will encounter a few issues as the new server goes live. Please be patient with us. It will be worth it! :) Please help by posting all issues here.
  • The forum will be down for about an hour this weekend for maintenance. I apologize for the inconvenience.
  • If you are having trouble seeing the forum then you may need to clear your browser's DNS cache. Click here for instructions on how to do that
  • Please review the Forum Rules frequently as we are constantly trying to improve the forum for our members and visitors.

Drafting letter to local school principal

Status
Not open for further replies.

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
Drafting letter to local school principal on the legality of open carry with a CPL in a school. I would like to ask for help from folks here who know more than I and maybe those who have already written a similar letter.

A letter from the principal cites the veto of Gov Snyder of " new legislation " http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/201212191230/POLITICS02/212190361

and

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10947--,00.html

http://www.legislature.mi.gov/(S(gh...eg.aspx?page=getObject&objectName=mcl-28-425o

Any help would be great.

edit* Also The principal cited school weapon policies found here
http://www.neola.com/kelloggsville-mi/search/policies/po7217.htm
 
Last edited:

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
I would highlight WHY it would be beneficial .... point out security issues with the bldg ... how easy it is to get into the bldgs ..

(I would write to all principals and the super of your SD)

I would go and see how easy it is to get into the schools .. walk around until someone boots you out (if not forever)...you'll likely find you can roam the hallways w/o issue.

And that a criminal would have been able to do the same but with a gun as he won't follow the laws anyway.
 

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
I will likely add some logical reasons as well, right now though I am looking at the legal side, which is not logical :banghead:
I would highlight WHY it would be beneficial .... point out security issues with the bldg ... how easy it is to get into the bldgs ..

(I would write to all principals and the super of your SD)

I would go and see how easy it is to get into the schools .. walk around until someone boots you out (if not forever)...you'll likely find you can roam the hallways w/o issue.

And that a criminal would have been able to do the same but with a gun as he won't follow the laws anyway.
 

davidmcbeth

Banned
Joined
Jan 14, 2012
Messages
16,167
Location
earth's crust
I will likely add some logical reasons as well, right now though I am looking at the legal side, which is not logical :banghead:

You school administrators are not lawyers ... they don't care about legal arguments regarding this subject matter .. the law is already there
 

Venator

Anti-Saldana Freedom Fighter
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
6,462
Location
Lansing area, Michigan, USA
They can allow OC only at this time for non LEOs. This allows them:

750.237a Individuals engaging in proscribed conduct; violation; penalties; definitions.Sec. 237a.
(1) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 224, 224a, 224b, 224c, 224e, 226, 227, 227a, 227f, 234a, 234b, or 234c, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for a second or subsequent time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a felony punishable by 1 or more of the following:
(a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated.
(b) Community service for not more than 150 hours.
(c) A fine of not more than 3 times the maximum fine authorized for the section violated.
(2) An individual who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(1), 224d, 226a, 227c, 227d, 231c, 232a(1) or (4), 233, 234, 234e, 234f, 235, 236, or 237, or who engages in conduct proscribed under section 223(2) for the first time, in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
(a) Imprisonment for not more than the maximum term of imprisonment authorized for the section violated or 93 days, whichever is greater.
(b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
(c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00 or the maximum fine authorized for the section violated, whichever is greater.
(3) Subsections (1) and (2) do not apply to conduct proscribed under a section enumerated in those subsections to the extent that the proscribed conduct is otherwise exempted or authorized under this chapter.
(4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following:
(a) Imprisonment for not more than 93 days.
(b) Community service for not more than 100 hours.
(c) A fine of not more than $2,000.00.
(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
(a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(d) An individual who possesses a weapon provided by a school or a school's instructor on school property for purposes of providing or receiving instruction in the use of that weapon.
(e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.
(f) An individual who is 18 years of age or older who is not a student at the school and who possesses a firearm on school property while transporting a student to or from the school if any of the following apply:
(i) The individual is carrying an antique firearm, completely unloaded, in a wrapper or container in the trunk of a vehicle while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area or function involving the exhibition, demonstration or sale of antique firearms.
(ii) The individual is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle, while in possession of a valid Michigan hunting license or proof of valid membership in an organization having shooting range facilities, and while en route to or from a hunting or target shooting area.
(iii) The person is carrying a firearm unloaded in a wrapper or container in the trunk of the person's vehicle from the place of purchase to his or her home or place of business or to a place of repair or back to his or her home or place of business, or in moving goods from one place of abode or business to another place of abode or business.
(iv) The person is carrying an unloaded firearm in the passenger compartment of a vehicle that does not have a trunk, if the person is otherwise complying with the requirements of subparagraph (ii) or (iii) and the wrapper or container is not readily accessible to the occupants of the vehicle.
 

xmanhockey7

Regular Member
Joined
Jun 15, 2010
Messages
1,195
I'd point out the fact they're preempted by state law and possibly cite the part in the CADL decision saying public schools are seen the same as public libraries under the law. Possibly bring up the fact the Michigan State Police and the Governor recognize the legality of OC in a PFZ.
 

FreeInAZ

Regular Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
2,508
Location
Secret Bunker
Raggs - What you may run into is school staff who just do not give a flying fudge about the law. Why? Because they know they will not be held accountable for breaking it. They will have their lawyers (if not already doing so) attempt to run some crap by you to see what sticks.

In the following audio from waterford schools you will hear what you are in for. In the end they basically told Venator to pound sand.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=5t7GHCLT15c&desktop_uri=/watch?v=5t7GHCLT15c

Not trying to discourage you, just be ready for them to tell you to sod off mate. :(
 

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
S draft

Dear Principal

I received your letter and due to your misunderstanding of the “open carry permit” I want to take this opportunity to further explain. I have reviewed all of the links you provided. I had read all of these and studied each of them in depth before you furnished them to me. However, you seem to have missed or omitted one: Michigan Compiled Law Excerpt:

http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,4643,7-123-1591_3503_4654-10926--,00.html

which in part says

(4) Except as provided in subsection (5), an individual who possesses a weapon in a weapon free school zone is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by 1 or more of the following …

(5) Subsection (4) does not apply to any of the following:
(a) An individual employed by or contracted by a school if the possession of that weapon is to provide security services for the school.
(b) A peace officer.
(c) An individual licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.
(e) An individual who possesses a firearm on school property if that possession is with the permission of the school's principal or an agent of the school designated by the school's principal or the school board.

Also you might like to read Michigan State Police here: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/msp/MSP_Legal_Update_No._86_2_336854_7.pdf

Which will open a pdf from the Michigan state police update
As provided by law in the State of Michigan, I am legally within my rights to open carry a firearm on school property since I hold a valid Michigan Concealed Pistol License.

Thank You

Me
 
Last edited:

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
The thing about schools, is that apart from a narrow set of circumstances, such as most notably voting, they can kick anyone out at any time if they aren't a student. Most adults don't have a right to be at a school, it's more of a privilege.

So that said, I wouldn't worry about moral arguments and such. Just let them know that when a CPL holding adult has a right to be at their school/school system, that person also has a right to be carrying openly. That is all they need to know.
 

Raggs

Regular Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2012
Messages
1,181
Location
Wild Wild West Michigan
Such as parent teacher conferences or any time the parent is asked to come to the school to meet with a teacher or the principal?

The thing about schools, is that apart from a narrow set of circumstances, such as most notably voting, they can kick anyone out at any time if they aren't a student. Most adults don't have a right to be at a school, it's more of a privilege.

So that said, I wouldn't worry about moral arguments and such. Just let them know that when a CPL holding adult has a right to be at their school/school system, that person also has a right to be carrying openly. That is all they need to know.
 

Michigander

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
4,818
Location
Mulligan's Valley
Certainly preemption reads as though it stops schools from having any blanket policy against CPL holding OC. But do you have a defined right to go to a sporting event? I'd have thought it was still in the realm of a privilege, and thus subject to people being booted out on a case by case basis, even if not as part of an official policy. Even if more or less a preemption violation, it would seem they'd get away with it pretty well.

Are there any other laws which maybe are relevant here?
 
Last edited:

Evil Creamsicle

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 11, 2009
Messages
1,264
Location
Police State, USA
Certainly preemption reads as though it stops schools from having any blanket policy against CPL holding OC. But do you have a defined right to go to a sporting event? I'd have thought it was still in the realm of a privilege, and thus subject to people being booted out on a case by case basis, even if not as part of an official policy. Even if more or less a preemption violation, it would seem they'd get away with it pretty well.

Are there any other laws which maybe are relevant here?

Though, theoretically, isn't it your tax dollars paying for said sporting event? In which case, could an argument be made for you having a right to utilize services which you also fund?
 

TheQ

Regular Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2010
Messages
3,379
Location
Lansing, Michigan
Though, theoretically, isn't it your tax dollars paying for said sporting event? In which case, could an argument be made for you having a right to utilize services which you also fund?

Your tax dollars also fund thermal nuclear weapon. Do you have the right to take one of them out for a spin?
 

OC for ME

Regular Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
12,452
Location
White Oak Plantation
The carry of a properly holstered and plainly visible firearm into any school these days, without the permission of the "staff" in writing, you should expect to be asked to leave.....and that is the very best possible scenario. I will not delve into any scenario that is not the very best scenario when a school staff member discovers your properly holstered and plainly visible firearm.

As a side note, expect to be hassled at a minimum by the local news and likely the national news, let alone the local cops, for causing "undue alarm" when the school goes into lock down cuz a school staff member is not as up to speed on the law as you seem to be.

It seems that your name is "out there" and there is no need to be inconspicuous any further.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top