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Thread: Clearance time for gun purchase

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    Clearance time for gun purchase

    Wondering if anyone has purchased a gun within the last week or so, and if you did, how much time it took before the dealer was authorized to deliver the gun to you. I purchased a gun on Tuesday 2/12/13 @ about 1000. As usual with me, clearance was 'delayed'. In the past, this has always been resolved within 2 to 3 hours. As of 2000 on 2/15/13, the dealer has not been called back (about 82 hours so far). Just wondering if anyone else has experienced any exceptional delays.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    The servers were down for several hours on the 11th but as I understand it, all checks are normal now.

    You have been on hold long enough now that the dealer can sell it without the check.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The servers were down for several hours on the 11th but as I understand it, all checks are normal now.

    You have been on hold long enough now that the dealer can sell it without the check.

    They've changed the rules. Apparently the 3-day rule no longer applies. When my application was 'delayed', the dealer was told the release date was 2/19/13 @ 1129. This is exactly 169 hours from the moment the dealer was told my application was 'delayed'.
    The forms are slightly different from the last time I filled them out (Nov 2012), and apparently they changed the release time the same time they changed the forms. That's irritating in itself, but I don't understand why it's taking so long to get a clearance after the initial 'delayed' time.

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    The servers were down for several hours on the 11th but as I understand it, all checks are normal now.

    You have been on hold long enough now that the dealer can sell it without the check.
    "can" or "must" ?

    One time, when I was hold, the dealer told me he "could" transfer to me after 3 days of hearing nothing, but that he "wouldn't". It didn't become an issue because he got the OK within 24 hours on that occasion

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    In this present climate, I doubt you can find a dealer who would transfer it without the OK, even after a year.

    JMHO.

    TFred

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    Hey! Who's this new guy? And, what's he playing, one-upsmanship?


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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    "can" or "must" ?

    One time, when I was hold, the dealer told me he "could" transfer to me after 3 days of hearing nothing, but that he "wouldn't". It didn't become an issue because he got the OK within 24 hours on that occasion
    Can!
    It's up to the dealer. Most won't if it's because they're investigating.

    I don't think the rule has changed because it isn't a rule, it's written into the instant background law I believe.
    Now if the dealer chooses to ignore it or set his own time table, that's his choice. Saying the law changed is probably just his way of avoiding heat.
    Last edited by peter nap; 02-16-2013 at 12:47 AM.

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    Regular Member Baked on Grease's Avatar
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    Re: Clearance time for gun purchase

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Can!
    It's up to the dealer. Most won't if it's because they're investigating.

    I don't think the rule has changed because it isn't a rule, it's written into the instant background law I believe.
    Now if the dealer chooses to ignore it or set his own time table, that's his choice. Saying the law changed is probably just his way of avoiding heat.
    Nope, under Virginia law it IS must. They have 72 hours to hear back from the background check, if they don't they are obligated under the Virginia Consumer Protection Act to release the product to you. User wrote it all it all up last year, when I get home i'll find it for you if you haven't found it by then.

    Also, if you have them on tape flat out refusing to release the product to you then you have a 'Willful' violation of the VCPA which comes with a whole extra level of award for you/punishment for them if I recall correctly.

    I should note that the VCPA comes with protections for the dealer, if they release the firearm to you before hearing back from the BC people and it later comes back as Denied they won'r get in trouble. It would be up to the ATF and local police to get the firearm back from a denial and the dealer can't be sued/prosecuted for merely following Virginia law.

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    Last edited by Baked on Grease; 02-16-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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    Regular Member half_life1052's Avatar
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    I picked up a handgun Friday the 8th. It never has taken more than 2 minutes to get the "go" from Richmond. Last week was no different.

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    I bought a handgun (Sig P229) this afternoon at Guns and Ammo in Manassas, my check took all of 5-10 minutes.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baked on Grease View Post
    Nope, under Virginia law it IS must. They have 72 hours to hear back from the background check, if they don't they are obligated under the Virginia Consumer Protection Act to release the product to you. User wrote it all it all up last year, when I get home i'll find it for you if you haven't found it by then.

    Also, if you have them on tape flat out refusing to release the product to you then you have a 'Willful' violation of the VCPA which comes with a whole extra level of award for you/punishment for them if I recall correctly.

    I should note that the VCPA comes with protections for the dealer, if they release the firearm to you before hearing back from the BC people and it later comes back as Denied they won'r get in trouble. It would be up to the ATF and local police to get the firearm back from a denial and the dealer can't be sued/prosecuted for merely following Virginia law.

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    I was getting ready to shout "Cite" but if Dan wrote it up....It's good enough for me.

    I therefore change my answer to "Shall" but there are a hell of a lot of dealers refusing to do it.

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    Accomplished Advocate user's Avatar
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    Va. Code section 59.1-200(8); see 59.1-204 for statutory damages; it's also a breach of contract. The three day rule (I'd like to see some authority for the assertion that it's been changed, btw) gives the dealer an excuse for as long as it's valid, but after that, you have a binding contract. I know some dealers who won't take the money for the gun until after the deal's approved, just for that reason - their argument is that there is no contract as long as they haven't accepted money. That's not entirely good, however, as consideration for a contract is a promise to pay in exchange for a promise to deliver - the mutuality of contract is based on the exchange of mere promises. But one dealer I know takes the position that his promise is contingent on approval, which is also a valid argument as long as it's clear to both parties at the time. Technical term, "contract contingent upon a condition subsequent".
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

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    I'd like to thank everyone for their input. I'd like to clarify a couple of things. I'm not exactly a 'new guy'; I have been a member for more than 4 years. Although I read the posts almost every day, I don't often have anything worthwhile to add to the discussions. I am certainly not trying 'one-upsmanship'. As to whether or not the rules have changed, that was my assumption, based on:
    (1) the dealer being given a "release date" which was exactly 169 hours from the moment the dealer was told my application was 'delayed'.
    (2) The dearer said he had never before been given a release date in that format.
    (3) In addition, the application forms had a different format than when I last filled them out (November 2012).
    I know, assumptions only make...etc. Anyway, those are the facts. As of 2030 on Feb 16, the dealer had still not heard anything more on the clearance. He said this type of delay has never happened to him before (nor to me). I have not yet asked the dealer if he will transfer the gun after the 169 hours have expired on 2/19.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1CITIZEN View Post
    He said this type of delay has never happened to him before (nor to me). I have not yet asked the dealer if he will transfer the gun after the 169 hours have expired on 2/19.
    Do you have an escape plan laid out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Do you have an escape plan laid out?
    I hope Virginia figures out what is going on and grants 'Approval'. If that fails, I hope the Dealer will transfer on Wednesday. If that fails, I'll get my deposit back, and try to find out what went wrong. Unfortunately, I have no idea as to how to get Virginia to discuss this with me. There is a process to appeal to Virginia if you are Denied, but there is no process identified for 'delay' inquiries. Instead, they tell the dealer (he can? he shall?) deliver at the end of 169 hours. I understand you can also get a unique PIN from the FBI, but I hope I don't have to consider that.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1CITIZEN View Post
    I hope Virginia figures out what is going on and grants 'Approval'. If that fails, I hope the Dealer will transfer on Wednesday. If that fails, I'll get my deposit back, and try to find out what went wrong. Unfortunately, I have no idea as to how to get Virginia to discuss this with me. There is a process to appeal to Virginia if you are Denied, but there is no process identified for 'delay' inquiries. Instead, they tell the dealer (he can? he shall?) deliver at the end of 169 hours. I understand you can also get a unique PIN from the FBI, but I hope I don't have to consider that.
    I doubt it's Virginia. These hangups are almost always on the Federal end.

    Just a side note for everyone that keep clamoring to do away with the state check and go straight Federal. This is normal in states using the Fed only system and they have no obligation to allow the purchase after 3 days.

    It can take months. The Va. people actively try to resolve it for the Feds. You might want to think about that before jumping on Senator Black's train of ill thought out bills.

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    Campaign Veteran roscoe13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I doubt it's Virginia. These hangups are almost always on the Federal end.

    Just a side note for everyone that keep clamoring to do away with the state check and go straight Federal. This is normal in states using the Fed only system and they have no obligation to allow the purchase after 3 days.

    It can take months. The Va. people actively try to resolve it for the Feds. You might want to think about that before jumping on Senator Black's train of ill thought out bills.
    Or, better yet, just wise up and stop buying guns that require a background check...

    Roscoe
    "The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference - they deserve a place of honor with all that's good." - George Washington

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roscoe13 View Post
    Or, better yet, just wise up and stop buying guns that require a background check...

    Roscoe
    Excellent point! Hopefully, that person whose name will not be mentioned, can't get his way about that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1CITIZEN View Post
    I hope Virginia figures out what is going on and grants 'Approval'. If that fails, I hope the Dealer will transfer on Wednesday. If that fails, I'll get my deposit back, and try to find out what went wrong. Unfortunately, I have no idea as to how to get Virginia to discuss this with me. There is a process to appeal to Virginia if you are Denied, but there is no process identified for 'delay' inquiries. Instead, they tell the dealer (he can? he shall?) deliver at the end of 169 hours. I understand you can also get a unique PIN from the FBI, but I hope I don't have to consider that.
    The dealer doesn't need their permission. He's free to sell the gun to you if they don't come back with a denial within the specified time (still looking for someone to tell me if that three-day rule has changed).

    Btw, as to that, I understand the VSP policy is "72 hours", which, as a legal matter is more generous to the purchaser than three days. There is a legal difference. For time measured in days, the date on which the transaction occurred is day zero; day one is the subsequent day, and on day four the dealer can transfer the firearm without anyone's permission unless he's received a denial on or before day three. (A denial that comes in on day four is a legal nullity unless it puts the dealer on actual notice that the purchaser is a convicted felon, adjudged insane, an illegal immigrant, etc.)
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

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    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    While fully admitting that I have not done the first bit of research on this myself, can someone explain to me how it is that if the background check is required of all FFLs due to federal law, FFLs in Virginia can legally do the transfer after 3 days, even if the background check is not satisfied?

    I need a better grasp.

    TFred

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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    While fully admitting that I have not done the first bit of research on this myself, can someone explain to me how it is that if the background check is required of all FFLs due to federal law, FFLs in Virginia can legally do the transfer after 3 days, even if the background check is not satisfied?

    I need a better grasp.

    TFred
    The three day rule is federal; Virginia also requires the background check but says the dealer isn't in violation of Va. law if he sells after the business day after the date of the transaction. Va. Code § 18.2-308.2:2.
    Daniel L. Hawes - 540 347 2430 - HTTP://www.VirginiaLegalDefense.com

    By the way, nothing I say on this website as "user" should be taken as either advertising for attorney services or legal advice, merely personal opinion. Everyone having a question regarding the application of law to the facts of their situation should seek the advice of an attorney competent in the subject matter of the issues presented and licensed to practice in the relevant state.

  22. #22
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    The three day rule is federal; Virginia also requires the background check but says the dealer isn't in violation of Va. law if he sells after the business day after the date of the transaction. Va. Code § 18.2-308.2:2.
    So does this become a similar situation to the GFSZA? The dealer is actually in violation of the federal law, but nobody enforces it?

    TFred

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    Did you get the gun?
    Which dealer is this?

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    Regular Member Thundar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    The three day rule is federal; Virginia also requires the background check but says the dealer isn't in violation of Va. law if he sells after the business day after the date of the transaction. Va. Code § 18.2-308.2:2.
    You are correct. The 3 day rule is federal, but in the Virginia Firearms Transaction Manual, signed by the head of Virginia State Police, they define business day as Monday to Friday, except for state holidays. I can do state business every day of the year except for Christmas, and the Virginia Background checks are done every day except Christmas.

    My point is that with the exception of Christmas, every day is a business day in Virginia. Where does the Superintendant of the Virginia State Police get the authority to make this sort of policy decision, defining business day in a more limited manner, in support of the feds?
    He wore his gun outside his pants for all the honest world to see. Pancho & Lefty

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    Quote Originally Posted by jegoodin View Post
    Did you get the gun?
    Which dealer is this?
    Yes, I finally got the gun. My request was initially phoned into VSP at a little after 1000 on 2/12. My request was 'delayed', and the dealer was told he could release the gun to me on 2/19 after 1130 if not 'approved' or 'denied' prior to that. The dealer finally received the 'approved' call on 2/19 at 1433.
    I know there was once a '3-day rule'; I'll say no more on that. I also know the dealer was specifically authorized to release the gun to me 169 plus hours after the initial 'delayed' date/time. So much for 3-days.
    The dealers primary business is not guns, and I'd prefer to not identify him.

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