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Thread: open carry with no cpl

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    open carry with no cpl

    I do not have a CPL and i am confused on the law of OC in a establishment that sells liquor. Does the law mean a bar in which liquor is served or just as an example your local meijers or wal mart which also sells packaged liquor? Would this include a local convienance store that sells beer but not actual liquor? Also how "open" does OC have to be? obviously not concealed by a coat or shirt.I have read where some states as long as some protion of weapon is visible it is considered OC. Any info appreciated. The law as usual is kind of confusing and contradicting.

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Both. You cannot carry in either an establishment that makes a majority of it's profit from alcohol sold for consumption on the premises (bar) or any store licensed by the state liquor board without a CPL. With a CPL you can open carry in either. The only exception to the bar is if you have written permission of the owner. Hope this helps.

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.
    Sec. 234d.


    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    (2) This section does not apply to any of the following:

    (a) A person who owns, or is employed by or contracted by, an entity described in subsection (1) if the possession of that firearm is to provide security services for that entity.

    (b) A peace officer.

    (c) A person licensed by this state or another state to carry a concealed weapon.

    (d) A person who possesses a firearm on the premises of an entity described in subsection (1) if that possession is with the permission of the owner or an agent of the owner of that entity.

    (3) A person who violates this section is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 90 days or a fine of not more than $100.00, or both.
    28.425o Premises on which carrying concealed weapon or portable device that uses electro-muscular disruption technology prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsections (1) and (2); violation; penalties.
    Sec. 5o.


    (1) Subject to subsection (5), an individual licensed under this act to carry a concealed pistol, or who is exempt from licensure under section 12a(1)(f), shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises of any of the following:

    (a) A school or school property except that a parent or legal guardian of a student of the school is not precluded from carrying a concealed pistol while in a vehicle on school property, if he or she is dropping the student off at the school or picking up the child from the school. As used in this section, "school" and "school property" mean those terms as defined in section 237a of the Michigan penal code, 1931 PA 328, MCL 750.237a.

    (b) A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.

    (c) A sports arena or stadium.

    (d) A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises. This subdivision does not apply to an owner or employee of the business. The Michigan liquor control commission shall develop and make available to holders of licenses under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, an appropriate sign stating that "This establishment prohibits patrons from carrying concealed weapons". The owner or operator of an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, may, but is not required to, post the sign developed under this subdivision. A record made available by an establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, necessary to enforce this subdivision is exempt from disclosure under the freedom of information act, 1976 PA 442, MCL 15.231 to 15.246.

    (e) Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.

    (f) An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 02-16-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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    where would i find a list of places that are on liquor control board? meijers would be a no go im assuming?

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    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

    Yep.springerdave.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD78 View Post
    where would i find a list of places that are on liquor control board? meijers would be a no go im assuming?
    http://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,...905---,00.html
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    so basicaly open carry with out cpl is a joke??????....discuoraging to say the least. i did not see wal mart benton harbor or meijers benton harbor on the list however i know they sell liquor

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    open carry with no cpl

    Quote Originally Posted by FORD78 View Post
    so basicaly open carry with out cpl is a joke??????....discuoraging to say the least. i did not see wal mart benton harbor or meijers benton harbor on the list however i know they sell liquor
    Search "Wal-mart"
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    open carry with no cpl

    Quote Originally Posted by ezerharden View Post
    both. You cannot carry in either an establishment that makes its primary source of income from alcohol sold for consumption on the premises (bar) or any store licensed by the state liquor board without a cpl. With a cpl you can open carry in either. The only exception to the bar is if you have written permission of the owner. Hope this helps.
    fify
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    i should have been more clear i was in the gas station portion of both places. Knowing they both stores sell liquor i knew to steer clear. Not a drinker or bar goer i was really surprised how many places in berrien county are actualy on the liquor control board. Thanks for posting the link it was an interesting read!

  10. #10
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    open carry with no cpl

    For OC w/ a CPL the primary source needed be for sale on premises by the glass -- see mcl 750.234d (google)
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD78 View Post
    i doubt wal mart or meijers make a living off of booze.....ive open carried in both with praise but i dont wanna get in trouble if the confrontation happens. I got a dui reduced to a reckless driving in 06 BOGUS charge i wasnt even driving!!! that restricts me from a cpl for 8 years according to MI law. trying to get by and be protected till then
    If you weren't driving, how did you get charged? And, what jury would convict?
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

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    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    This would be a good sticky I think.

    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

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    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    For OC w/ a CPL the primary source needed be for sale on premises by the glass -- see mcl 750.234d (google)
    You mean like quoted in my original reply to the question?
    Last edited by Ezerharden; 02-17-2013 at 02:45 PM.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    If you weren't driving, how did you get charged? And, what jury would convict?
    Law states that officer must "witness" the suspect operating a vehichle on public roadway. That did not happen however $4,000 in lawyers later i gave in and took a plea not knowing the lesser charge would be that big of an issue almost 8 yrs later. To make a long story short i was out of money to fight it any longer. I was wrong and broke the law but LEO did not operate within the law either and NOTHING was done about that. You know who wins that case. Pretty much fell victim to the "good ole boy policy". Guess im stuck waiting another yr or so for cpl.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD78 View Post
    i doubt wal mart or meijers make a living off of booze.....ive open carried in both with praise but i dont wanna get in trouble if the confrontation happens. I got a dui reduced to a reckless driving in 06 BOGUS charge i wasnt even driving!!! that restricts me from a cpl for 8 years according to MI law. trying to get by and be protected till then
    without a CPL you can't even possess i firearm in the parking lot of a meijer, walmart or any other place that is licensed to sell liquor regardless of the percentage. i suggest you do not admit to further further crimes on a public internet forum.
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
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    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    open carry with no cpl

    http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/sh...44#post1885244

    It seems you've already carried at Meijers?
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD78 View Post
    where would i find a list of places that are on liquor control board? meijers would be a no go im assuming?
    Bear in mind that they don't have to actually sell alcohol, they just need to be licensed.

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Regular Member griffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan View Post
    without a CPL you can't even possess i firearm in the parking lot of a meijer, walmart or any other place that is licensed to sell liquor
    According to MCL and MLCC I disagree.
    Last edited by griffin; 02-18-2013 at 11:08 AM.
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    Regular Member DanM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by smellslikemichigan
    without a CPL you can't even possess i firearm in the parking lot of a meijer, walmart or any other place that is licensed to sell liquor
    According to MCL and MLCC I disagree.
    MOC's recommendation falls more in line with assuming SLM's view than yours:
    Quote Originally Posted by Michigan Open Carry
    It's a legal grey area. Don't do it unless you are prepared to shell out over $20,000 in attorney costs if it goes to Court and you need to appeal. If it goes to the Court of Appeals we'd welcome the binding case law. We don't recommend you OC or Transport in a Parking lot of an establishment licensed to sell liquor.. As always, we advocate people should know the law, gauge their own risk, and speak to a licensed attorney for legal advise. We'd be happy to provide you references to some attorneys who have expertise in firearm laws.
    http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/....html#msg13009

    Also, all the non-CPL OC'ers I've heard from so far adopt variations of MOC's and SLM's views in practice. Are you a non-CPL OC'er?
    Last edited by DanM; 02-18-2013 at 12:00 PM.
    "The principle of self-defense, even involving weapons and bloodshed, has never been condemned, even by Gandhi . . ."--Dr. Martin Luther King Jr

    “He who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honor by non-violently facing death, may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden.”--M. K. Gandhi

    "First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win." --M. K. Gandhi

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by griffin View Post
    According to MCL and MLCC I disagree.
    If we were to say that you are correct in the idea that the "premises" ONLY includes the actual building....that still only applies to places licensed to sell alcohol. The remaining places on the list in .234d would still be completely off limits, including their parking lots.

    So you cannot walk across the parking lot of a bank, theater, court, hospital, day care center, etc.

    750.234d Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.Sec. 234d.


    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2), a person shall not possess a firearm on the premises of any of the following:



    (a) A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.

    (b) A church or other house of religious worship.

    (c) A court.

    (d) A theatre.

    (e) A sports arena.

    (f) A day care center.

    (g) A hospital.

    (h) An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.
    Bronson
    Last edited by Bronson; 02-18-2013 at 11:58 AM.
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    I wasnt trying to start an argument here! Its just very unclear and i was VERY misinformed by a LEO on some of the laws regarding to and prior to OC. Im not bashing him in anyway he is very pro gun and leiniant with his inturpretation of the actual law. He clearly did not know the law to the T. Which i found out later after reading some links, posts, and comments members have left here. It seems LEOs as most of us do have a hard time fully grasping the proper meaning of each law and circumstance. Ask 20 diff people wether they are LEO or not and get 20 diff answers. This is a very informative site for sure!

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    Regular Member Bronson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FORD78 View Post
    I wasnt trying to start an argument here!
    Haha! Trust me, that's not an argument. That's normal back and forth for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by FORD78 View Post
    Its just very unclear and i was VERY misinformed by a LEO on some of the laws regarding to and prior to OC.
    One of the first things we learn is to NEVER ask a LEO for advice on the law. Think about it, there are so many laws on the books there is no way for them to know all of them. Some cops work under the idea of "arrest 'em all and let the courts sort it out."

    Bronson
    Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine

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    Nothing like a good debate!!!!he is a long time family friend and vetran LEO one of the honest ones and his views on the above topics are like most of our views. need alot more like him and things would be much easier for all. he even asked what could be done about changing some of the gun laws which are nonsense and nearly impossible to police. mentioned same thing that way to many of his coworkers are as you described arrest em all let court sort it out. His idea was make a lawful arrest and not waste his time, suspects time, and tax payers $ tied up in our court systems.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: open carry with no cpl

    Quote Originally Posted by FORD78 View Post
    Nothing like a good debate!!!!he is a long time family friend and vetran LEO one of the honest ones and his views on the above topics are like most of our views. need alot more like him and things would be much easier for all. he even asked what could be done about changing some of the gun laws which are nonsense and nearly impossible to police. mentioned same thing that way to many of his coworkers are as you described arrest em all let court sort it out. His idea was make a lawful arrest and not waste his time, suspects time, and tax payers $ tied up in our court systems.
    Also pay close attention to that license list... public venues such as libraries and city buildings may have a license so that they can rent out rooms for weddings and other functions and serve alcohol.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

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    yes ive seen that MOST dollar general stores are on the list. Never any that i know of around here have ever sold booze but according to list they are active on liquor list. even tho their sales show zero. whod have ever thunk?

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