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Thread: A friends close encounter

  1. #1
    Regular Member cowboyridn's Avatar
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    A friends close encounter

    I have a friend who lives in Sun-Prairie Wisconsin and recently told me of a near altercation he had involving his firearm. He came home from work early a few days ago due to an appointment with his insurance person and noticed a white vehicle parked in front of his house with three teen age kids inside. As he pulled in his driveway the vehicle took off.


    His wife and Daughter were in the house already when he pulled up and they apparently had the garage door open during the afternoon. He went into the house and told his wife about the vehicle and as they watched outside the window the vehicle drove by again slowly and drove off.


    A few minutes later he noticed the vehicle sitting in front of the neighbors house next to his and he went into the garage to get his firearm out of his vehicle. The garage door was still open and as he secured his firearm, one of the guy teenagers appeared from behind his vehicle he had parked in the driveway heading into the garage where my friend was standing.


    Hiding the firearm behind his back my friend yelled at the teenager as he came up the driveway “can I help you” and as he yelled the teenager turned around and ran back to the vehicle, got in and took off. As the vehicle drove off my friend ran to the end of the driveway and again yelled “can I help you” and as they drive by they yelled were looking for an address which I seriously doubt what there intentions, they were no doubt casing the place.


    He did not shoot at the teenager because the teenager was unarmed and no threat because my friend is 6' 5” and built and wasn't threatened by the scroungy teenager, he was concerned about his wife and daughter if he didn't come home early that day.


    We discussed what would have happened if he had shot the intruder in the driveway had he been armed and if the castle doctrine covers all the property not just inside the house. We discussed what you would say to the police and my advice was to request an attorney be present during any and all questioning and if you were not going to cooperate be prepared to be detained and arrested.


    We also discussed if the occupants of the car would have begun shooting from the car at my friend and he returned fire while the vehicle was on the street what would cover his actions which we are not quite sure if it would be the castle doctrine or any of the other Wisconsin Statutes listed.


    I wonder how I would have reacted, how would you have handled this situation?


    I sent him a copy of the below URL

    http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...ayes-SDLaw.pdf
    Last edited by cowboyridn; 02-17-2013 at 03:19 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyridn View Post
    We discussed what would have happened if he had shot the intruder in the driveway had he been armed and if the castle doctrine covers all the property not just inside the house. We discussed what you would say to the police and my advice was to request an attorney be present during any and all questioning and if you were not going to cooperate be prepared to be detained and arrested. We also discussed if the occupants of the car would have begun shooting from the car at my friend and he returned fire while the vehicle was on the street what would cover his actions which we are not quite sure if it would be the castle doctrine or any of the other Wisconsin Statutes listed.
    I sent him a copy of the below URL

    http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...ayes-SDLaw.pdf
    In N.C. you are allowed to defend your life and your property. If shots are fired from the vehicle you would be allowed to defend yourself. You would not be expected to just take it. That might be a little hard to prove that shots were fired from the vehicle unless you are hit or there is damage to your property from the shots. If this were my situation I would have a good talk with the family and what to do. We have a thing here at my house that is called home land security. The doors are always locked, you go some where and on the way back you usually check in with a text message if it only says hh for headed home.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Castle doctrine only covers your home and vehicle while you are in them. The intruder must have entered or is in the act of entering it forcibly. If they simply open your front door and walk in, it does not apply. If they simply open your car door and crawl in, it does not apply. If you are in your driveway or yard, it does not apply. You may never defend property in WI with deadly force. You would have a hard time justifying shooting at a car driving away or driving by in WI, even if someone in the car were shooting at you. There is no way you can be certain of your target and be certain that bullets would only strike your target. If the car is driving away, the threat is leaving with it.
    You can not simply shoot someone because they are trespassing and they have a weapon, or if they are stealing your property and they have a weapon. There must be an imminent threat to your (or a 3rd person's) life or of great bodily harm.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 02-17-2013 at 04:31 PM.

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    Regular Member cowboyridn's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info

    Wow, he would have been in big trouble had he shot, thanks for the info, sooooo many situations and sooo many laws looks like it would be easy to get caught up in a case and jailed without knowing the law.


    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Castle doctrine only covers your home and vehicle while you are in them. The intruder must have entered or is in the act of entering it forcibly. If they simply open your front door and walk in, it does not apply. If they simply open your car door and crawl in, it does not apply. If you are in your driveway or yard, it does not apply. You may never defend property in WI with deadly force. You would have a hard time justifying shooting at a car driving away or driving by in WI, even if someone in the car were shooting at you. There is no way you can be certain of your target and be certain that bullets would only strike your target. If the car is driving away, the threat is leaving with it.
    You can not simply shoot someone because they are trespassing and they have a weapon, or if they are stealing your property and they have a weapon. There must be an imminent threat to your (or a 3rd person's) life or of great bodily harm.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyridn View Post
    Wow, he would have been in big trouble had he shot, thanks for the info, sooooo many situations and sooo many laws looks like it would be easy to get caught up in a case and jailed without knowing the law.
    My advice is to take a quality WI Concealed Carry course. You will get a great overview of WI laws as it applies to firearms and deadly force. I certainly make sure that my students have an essential understanding of it as do most others. Anyone in WI who is teaching a Utah, etc course without WI specific training is doing an extreme disservice to their students even though it meets the Statutory requirements for WI License training.

  6. #6
    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Wisconsin law addresses curtilage as an extension of the "castle". Wisconsin has a "castle doctrine" law. http://tinyurl.com/d23nhc4

    The issue is not if "castle doctrine" is recognized or even if it is codified in the law. What matters is under what circumstances it can be relied on (used, as well as expected to give a favorable verdict when used) which drives the decision to use deadly force or not.

    All of the actions your friend encountered would not, IMHO, support the use of deadly force.

    We also discussed if the occupants of the car would have begun shooting from the car at my friend and he returned fire while the vehicle was on the street what would cover his actions which we are not quite sure if it would be the castle doctrine or any of the other Wisconsin Statutes listed.
    That one is going to be tricky. Can someone shooting from a moving vehicle really pose a threat, as opposed to being a threatening act? In other words, what are the chances they could actually hit what they thought they were aiming at? But let's put that aside and look at your friend and what happens to his bullets. Can he make sure all of them hit the car? Can he make sure they all hit the shooter and not some "innocent" passenger who was along for the ride and did not know ahead of time someone else was going to shoot at your friend? Does the fact that the shooter is moving away make him "fleeing" as opposed to "advancing/assaulting"? (Yes, he may have started the gunfire, but might he be trying to lay down suppresive fire to cover his escape?) All sorts of questions - some from the anti-gun side that are intentionally designed to confuse and mis-direct, and some legitimate concerns about staying within the limits of the law.

    And we have not yet even touched the fact that "stand your ground" laws do not always mean you should stand there and shoot it out, as opposed to retreating to cover, safety, and calling 9-1-1.

    Or were you looking for a short (10 words or less) answer that applies in all situations? (Not meaning to be snarky, just indicating that there are so many variables that need to be considered that an "elegant solution"* for one scenarion may be the worst possible for another.)

    stay safe.

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    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyridn
    We discussed what would have happened if he had shot the intruder in the driveway had he been armed and if the castle doctrine covers all the property not just inside the house
    Here's 939.48, which covers plain self-defense and sets out the conditions under which CD applies.
    The defender has to be present in the dwelling, car, or business, and the intruder has to enter unlawfully & forcibly.

    939.48(1m)(a)(1) references 895.07(1)(h) to give the definition of dwelling.
    Basically, it's any improvement to the property.
    "Dwelling" means any premises or portion of a premises that is used as a home or a place of residence and that part of the lot or site on which the dwelling is situated that is devoted to residential use.
    "Dwelling" includes other existing structures on the immediate residential premises such as driveways, sidewalks, swimming pools, terraces, patios, fences, porches, garages, and basements.
    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyridn
    We discussed what you would say to the police and my advice was to request an attorney be present during any and all questioning and if you were not going to cooperate be prepared to be detained and arrested.
    The generally recommended advice is something to the effect of "I was in fear for my life, I did what I had to to stop the threat to my life, there's [point out evidence - gun, knife, casings, witnesses], I will make a full statement once I've talked with my lawyer. Her (or his) name is ______________, and I will not say anything more until she is present."
    If you've been injured, be sure to point that out & ask to go to a hospital for treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyridn
    We also discussed if the occupants of the car would have begun shooting from the car at my friend and he returned fire while the vehicle was on the street what would cover his actions which we are not quite sure if it would be the castle doctrine or any of the other Wisconsin Statutes listed.
    Not CD, but plain self-defense, since the attacker wasn't on or entering the property.
    But it might also lead to a charge of reckless endangerment.

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark
    Can someone shooting from a moving vehicle really pose a threat, as opposed to being a threatening act
    If someone is shooting at me, I'm going to interpret it as a threat.

  8. #8
    Regular Member MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight
    Castle doctrine only covers your home and vehicle while you are in them.
    The intruder must have entered or is in the act of entering it forcibly. If they simply open your front door and walk in, it does not apply. If they simply open your car door and crawl in, it does not apply.
    If you are in your driveway or yard, it does not apply.
    1) It also covers the owner or operator of a business which has been unlawfully & forcibly entered.
    2) Opening a door is using force.
    3) See the law, quoted above. It does cover the driveway, as well as other improvements to the property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight
    My advice is to take a quality WI Concealed Carry course ... I certainly make sure that my students have an essential understanding of [laws]
    I hope that you will update all your students about Castle Doctrine.
    In order not to be accused of practicing law w/o a license (yes, a lawyer did tell me it's a possibility), I include the statute numbers & text in my presentation & encourage students to re-read it on their own or consult a lawyer.
    Last edited by MKEgal; 02-17-2013 at 06:06 PM.

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    1) It also covers the owner or operator of a business which has been unlawfully & forcibly entered.
    2) Opening a door is using force.
    3) See the law, quoted above. It does cover the driveway, as well as other improvements to the property.


    I hope that you will update all your students about Castle Doctrine.
    In order not to be accused of practicing law w/o a license (yes, a lawyer did tell me it's a possibility), I include the statute numbers & text in my presentation & encourage students to re-read it on their own or consult a lawyer.
    I do not agree with your interpretation of the verbiage. Please explain how one "forcibly enters" a driveway. Wisconsin does not define it in Statutes. We may just have to wait until the first court case to see what the jury instruction in the matter will be. The FBI's UCR (Uniform Crime Reporting) Handbook under crime classification breaks down Burglary as forcible entry and unlawful entry no force. A locked or unlocked door, window, etc differentiate between the two.
    I will not instruct my students according to your interpretation. I wish you luck defending deadly force by claiming privilege under 939.48 (1m)(ar) where the threat of death or great bodily harm was not imminent and the person was in your driveway. I also wish you luck defending the use of deadly force where someone simply opened the door and walked in and there was no imminent threat of death or great bodily harm.
    I also provide text and my students to seek out an attorney for legal advise.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 02-17-2013 at 08:28 PM.

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    Next time dial 911 right away and report the situation.
    Don't go out to confront him over property.
    I was taught if you can evade a situation do it!
    If you're involved in a shooting you better have a big bank account for attorneys fees.

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    Dosen't sound like a shoot situation to me sound like he handled it ok. They didn't show weapons make threats or other behavior that would justify in shooting them.


    Its also points out the need to have your defensive firearm on you instead of some place you have to go get it.

    Something else to think about is to keep a camera handy. If one could have snap a few pictures of the subjects and the vehicle could be a huge helping solving many crimes.

    Sounds to me they were planning a snatch and run. Open garage run in grab something run out get away.

    They most likely been doing this for a long time helping catch them would most likely solve and stop a lot of other crimes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    My advice is to take a quality WI Concealed Carry course. You will get a great overview of WI laws as it applies to firearms and deadly force. I certainly make sure that my students have an essential understanding of it as do most others. Anyone in WI who is teaching a Utah, etc course without WI specific training is doing an extreme disservice to their students even though it meets the Statutory requirements for WI License training.
    By Utah law, Utah Instructors are not allowed to teach anything but Utah regulations during a Utah class.

    Most of my clients taking my Utah class already have their state specfic permit/license.

    JJC

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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJC View Post
    By Utah law, Utah Instructors are not allowed to teach anything but Utah regulations during a Utah class.

    Most of my clients taking my Utah class already have their state specfic permit/license.

    JJC
    Are you saying that you can not simply make the statement, "This concludes our Utah Training Class, and we will now begin the WI Concealed Carry Class" or something to that effect? Please cite the Utah law you are referencing. Everything I found states a minimum curriculum which you MUST teach and nothing states what you MAY NOT teach.
    Last edited by Interceptor_Knight; 02-19-2013 at 01:59 PM.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Want a concealed carry license take a class. Want legal advice talk to a lawyer. Sheeeesh
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Want a concealed carry license take a class. Want legal advice talk to a lawyer. Sheeeesh
    You are obviously neither a trainer nor have ever taken a CCW class (or weren't paying attention if you did). The applicable Federal and State Laws are a significant portion of each CCW class. The WI License application requires you to sign in 3 places and by doing so you are acknowledging that you are familiar with the applicable laws. There is a difference between formal legal advise and a training curriculum which discusses the verbiage of the applicable laws. Many of the threads on this forum are in regards to what the verbiage is regarding firearms "laws".

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    You are obviously neither a trainer nor have ever taken a CCW class (or weren't paying attention if you did). The applicable Federal and State Laws are a significant portion of each CCW class. The WI License application requires you to sign in 3 places and by doing so you are acknowledging that you are familiar with the applicable laws. There is a difference between formal legal advise and a training curriculum which discusses the verbiage of the applicable laws. Many of the threads on this forum are in regards to what the verbiage is regarding firearms "laws".
    Again I repeat get a concealed carry license by taking a class, get legal advice from a lawyer, otherwise that person would be a fool. And only a fool would point a person to a gun class for legal advice.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Again I repeat get a concealed carry license by taking a class, get legal advice from a lawyer, otherwise that person would be a fool. And only a fool would point a person to a gun class for legal advice.
    Again, you obviously have zero experience in this field and it is evident.
    There is a difference between official legal advice and training which reviews the text of the laws. Few people will spend the money to consult a lawyer but many will take the time to read the FAQs published by their State Department of justice, Department of Natural Resources, etc. All reputable CCW classes have the applicable State and Federal Laws as part of their curriculum and all States who have training standards require it to be so.

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    The crux of the issue is that cowboy is addressing a particular scenario. Though we/I need to know the laws by heart, the prosecution, had the gun been used, would try to demolish the "I was in fear of my life"' in this scenario. The dude didn't have a gun and was running away. Can't use castle doctrine or stand your ground. You can shout "fire" in a theater if there is a fire, and not because you thought there was going to be one. Interceptor is right, in my humble opinion: forced entry in an open driveway. MKE is right if the house was surrounded by walls and the entrance had a locked gate which was broken thru and the intruder walked in thru an open door. But in WI, 99% of the driveways are open at least where I live. Now in Milwaukee or Madison, there may be gated homes. Now if the dude had a gun and was walking to the garage and was going to point it and kept walking, yes you could say " I was in fear of my life." But decided he was going to point and then decided to turn and run when he saw my gun, I wouldn't shoot and call 911.
    From what I understand every scenario will require to be scrutinized differently by the prosecution and applicable statutes applied.

    I know one thing Gabe Gutenberger and his late wife told us, first always try to calm down the situation or find a way out ( physically) and call 911. Do all you can to avoid shooting. Only use the gun if your life or someone elses is ACTUALLY in danger of death or great bodily harm and not because you thought so. I know I know leos can get away with it bec they "thought so" sometimes.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Again, you obviously have zero experience in this field and it is evident.
    There is a difference between official legal advice and training which reviews the text of the laws. Few people will spend the money to consult a lawyer but many will take the time to read the FAQs published by their State Department of justice, Department of Natural Resources, etc. All reputable CCW classes have the applicable State and Federal Laws as part of their curriculum and all States who have training standards require it to be so.
    The OP NEVER asked for training! The OP did ask for legal advice, which some members have posted statutes. Any knowledge of the laws he can get from money grubbing CC instructors he can get for FREE off the internet. Not to mention there are several attorneys he can approach that are members and know a hell of a lot more about the law than some fly by night instructor looking to fill his pockets. Looking for LEGAL advice with money in hand from anybody but a qualified attorney is sheer stupidity. We have all seen the bias of CC instructors and the erogenous opinions of them, avoiding doing only what they are paid for.
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    I have had DAs ask for my advise on laws and regulations.That I enforced on a daly basics and that they didn't have any idea of untill someone plead not quilty.

    Many times I would sit down with them open the statue books up and explain the law to them. Show them court cases and AG opions that were relevant to the case.

    Unless an attorney works with in a specic area some lay person can have more knowledge and experience then the attorney that does not work with in that area.

    As with any training lic or degree doesn't make one all knowing.

    I firmly belive a man who has himself for an attorney as a fool for a lawyer.
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  21. #21
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firearms Iinstuctor View Post
    I have had DAs ask for my advise on laws and regulations.That I enforced on a daly basics and that they didn't have any idea of untill someone plead not quilty.

    Many times I would sit down with them open the statue books up and explain the law to them. Show them court cases and AG opions that were relevant to the case.

    Unless an attorney works with in a specic area some lay person can have more knowledge and experience then the attorney that does not work with in that area.

    As with any training lic or degree doesn't make one all knowing.

    I firmly belive a man who has himself for an attorney as a fool for a lawyer.
    DA's asking for advice from LE is not unusual. BUT implying that a person should pay a NON lawyer for legal advice is stupid. A CC class is just that, not a basic law class, or criminal justice class, and never should replace competent legal counsel. The very suggestion of a CC instructor accepting money for legal advice IMO is a attempt at practicing law without a license, and highly illegal. If he wants to offer his advice for free as any other citizen might that is another story. But the OP does not need to take a class for that.
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    Regular Member Interceptor_Knight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ..The very suggestion of a CC instructor accepting money for legal advice IMO is a attempt at practicing law without a license, and highly illegal....
    Your inference that CCW classes should not include a discussion of applicable State and Federal "laws" is pure ignorant nonsense and, frankly, you are talking out of your rectum. Discussion of these things is actually curriculum required by States which set a curriculum. In other words, the State Law Enforcement Agencies which are typically overseen by the State Attorney Generals are directing instructors to discuss the laws. This is not the same as "practicing law".

  23. #23
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Interceptor_Knight View Post
    Your inference that CCW classes should not include a discussion of applicable State and Federal "laws" is pure ignorant nonsense and, frankly, you are talking out of your rectum. Discussion of these things is actually curriculum required by States which set a curriculum. In other words, the State Law Enforcement Agencies which are typically overseen by the State Attorney Generals are directing instructors to discuss the laws. This is not the same as "practicing law".
    How could you be a instructor of toilet repair let alone CCW classes. Your reading comprehension is horrible. The OP NEVER mentioned getting a CCW, OP related a incident and asked for comments. YOUR comment was he should take a CC class to get legal advice, I assume yours, to get information NOT having to do with CCW. Your contention is he should pay YOU to get legal advice. MY contention is he get legal advice from a attorney, especially if he is going to pay for it. Discussion of laws as part of a CC class IS NOT ethical when the person does not want a CCW. You have absolutely no business trying to procure money for legal advice that should only be given by a lawyer. It never ceases to amaze me the CC instructors that actually know zip about the law, and continue to lead people down the wrong path with lies and their wrong opinions. Again if you are NOT a attorney you are not qualified to take money for legal advice outside the realm of concealed carry. Otherwise you are committing a felony, and against board rules to suggest breaking laws.

    Stop representing yourself as a attorney unless you are licensed to do so!
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    Regular Member sharkey's Avatar
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    I'm still reading so I don't know if this was addressed but;

    It would be totally assinine to shoot at someone in your driveway acting suspicious. Even here in Arizona where it's hard to get a concivtion in self defense shootings I am confident you would be found guilty of murder in the above scenario.

    I don't care if your friend was 3'2" and scared out of his wits. His fear or the shoot would not be "reasonable".

    ETA. Re: the hypothetical scenario of shots being fired at him, castle doctrine is irrelevant, normal self defense justifications arise.

    He would be liable for any missed shots though.


    Quote Originally Posted by cowboyridn View Post

    SNIP

    Hiding the firearm behind his back my friend yelled at the teenager as he came up the driveway “can I help you” and as he yelled the teenager turned around and ran back to the vehicle, got in and took off. As the vehicle drove off my friend ran to the end of the driveway and again yelled “can I help you” and as they drive by they yelled were looking for an address which I seriously doubt what there intentions, they were no doubt casing the place.


    He did not shoot at the teenager because the teenager was unarmed and no threat because my friend is 6' 5” and built and wasn't threatened by the scroungy teenager, he was concerned about his wife and daughter if he didn't come home early that day.


    We discussed what would have happened if he had shot the intruder in the driveway had he been armed and if the castle doctrine covers all the property not just inside the house. We discussed what you would say to the police and my advice was to request an attorney be present during any and all questioning and if you were not going to cooperate be prepared to be detained and arrested.


    We also discussed if the occupants of the car would have begun shooting from the car at my friend and he returned fire while the vehicle was on the street what would cover his actions which we are not quite sure if it would be the castle doctrine or any of the other Wisconsin Statutes listed.


    I wonder how I would have reacted, how would you have handled this situation?


    I sent him a copy of the below URL

    http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/...ayes-SDLaw.pdf
    Last edited by sharkey; 02-20-2013 at 01:33 AM.
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  25. #25
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharkey View Post
    I'm still reading so I don't know if this was addressed but;

    It would be totally assinine to shoot at someone in your driveway acting suspicious. Even here in Arizona where it's hard to get a concivtion in self defense shootings I am confident you would be found guilty of murder in the above scenario.

    I don't care if your friend was 3'2" and scared out of his wits. His fear or the shoot would not be "reasonable".

    ETA. Re: the hypothetical scenario of shots being fired at him, castle doctrine is irrelevant, normal self defense justifications arise.

    He would be liable for any missed shots though.
    Agree...
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