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Pot and Pistols

eye95

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This is why Frank discussion is good. And glad you clarified.
I didn't mean my post to be an attack but a jumping off point to clarify my position on the subject and how serious any overstepping of rights may be, and to me all rights are connected we can't fight for one and ignore the others.

I didn't take your post as an attack. I was afraid that you thought I was calling your idea silly.

We don't always agree, but I don't find your ideas to be silly. Rational disagreement is possible.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk.

<o>
 

OC for ME

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Not that I agree with the OPs assertion, if pot was legalized and well regulated, it would free up law enforcement for other tasks (like enforcing current firearm laws concerning illegal use) and provide a new tax revenue stream.
A liberal that desires the state to enforce laws that are likely unconstitutional.....typical. The use of a gun (weapon) should not be a "aggravating factor" of the base offense. This promotes the false premise that a gun (weapon) is the problem and not the person who broke the law.
 

marshaul

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if pot was legalized and well regulated, it would ...SNIP... provide a new tax revenue stream.

It really disgusts me when people say this. What they really mean, of course, is that it needs to be specially regulated and taxed.

Allowing it to be sold in stores guarantees a normal sales tax (right there the worst part about legalization: our governments do not need more "revenue streams" to prolong the pain), and assuming a minimalist position of not selling it to minors (as with tobacco or alcohol) is, quite literally, infinitely more regulation than exists presently, as ought to be more than adequate in light of how utterly harmless marijuana is without any regulation to speak of.

I've learned there are two types of folks who support marijuana legalization: there is the first camp, who oppose prohibition because it exists contrary to right, because we have a literal human rights crisis with regard to the number of individuals incarcerated for non-crime offenses, and because the war on drugs "needed" to enforce prohibition has all kinds of nasty side-effects. Then you have the second camp, who support legalization because they have fantasies of a regulatory apparatus and more tax revenue.

If it weren't for the aforementioned human rights crisis, I would not tolerate, much less pursue, legalization at the cost of the conditions imposed by the second camp.

Incidentally, I've observed that progressives always fall into the second camp. This, I think, reveals to a great degree how feigned and artificial their façade of "compassion" is – it ought to be enough to end the ongoing aggressive deprivation of rights to hundreds of thousands of folks (not to mention that the majority of them are underprivileged and minorities). But, no, the progressive's "compassion" is nowhere to be found unless it's tied to taxes and regulatory apparatus; it never exits solely for the sake of the downtrodden. This is the height of selfishness.

Whereas libertarians, who do advocate legalization based solely on the sake of the downtrodden, are portrayed as selfish and indifferent to the plight of the poor and minorities. (We're lucky if they don't accuse us of being marijuana users simply for taking a principled stand.)

Now, these progressives can make all the BS claims they like. I've heard them all, the most common being: "tax and regulate" is merely the most convenient avenue in the current political climate. This is baloney. The easiest, most direct path (in states which have such) is through the referendum process, which results usually in a distinct lack of specific regulation, leaving that for subsequent legislative efforts. So, I submit that, when folks advocate "tax and regulate", rather than black-check legalization for its own sake, their true concern is the secondary process – the opportunity for legislative action on an area of life previously prohibited outright – rather than the democratic referendums which simply abolish prohibition in accordance with the manifest will of the American people.

People who think like that truly disgust me.

Legalize it. Do not tax it beyond sales tax. Do not regulate it beyond tobacco or alcohol (actually, regulate it less than alcohol – it's still a felony to distill liquor without paying the appropriate, very expensive, tax).

One day, before I die, I want to walk around, OC, in a farmers' market where fresh marijuana is for sale. Then I will know that I live in the freest place that has existed, at the very least, in my lifetime. It is my belief that if the regulationists get their way, this will be an impossibility.

(This post is on-topic because I was OC in my fantasy. :p)
 
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beebobby

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"A liberal that desires the state to enforce laws that are likely unconstitutional.....typical".
So laws that punish convicted felons for possesing/using a firearm are , in your opinion, unconstitutional and therefore not worthy of enforcement? So much for enforcing laws that are already on the books.

I could envision 3 different tax rates. If the pot is consumed it would be taxed as alcohol. If it were used as a cotton/wood replacement, ie. worn or written on, it would be taxed at a lower rate than the consumption tax. If it were used as a petroleum product replacement, it would provide a tax advantage. Revenue from these taxes would be split between the Fed and the states with a good portion of this revenue earmarked for education and infrastructure maintenance. They could reassign some of the DEA agents previously involved in marijuana interdiction to border patrol duties.
 

WalkingWolf

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"A liberal that desires the state to enforce laws that are likely unconstitutional.....typical".
So laws that punish convicted felons for possesing/using a firearm are , in your opinion, unconstitutional and therefore not worthy of enforcement? So much for enforcing laws that are already on the books.

I could envision 3 different tax rates. If the pot is consumed it would be taxed as alcohol. If it were used as a cotton/wood replacement, ie. worn or written on, it would be taxed at a lower rate than the consumption tax. If it were used as a petroleum product replacement, it would provide a tax advantage. Revenue from these taxes would be split between the Fed and the states with a good portion of this revenue earmarked for education and infrastructure maintenance. They could reassign some of the DEA agents previously involved in marijuana interdiction to border patrol duties.
Yes those laws are very much unconstitutional. But there are other constitutional laws, most that have nothing to do with a inanimate object, but behavior that are not being enforced enough. Only pot in commerce should be taxed, and then only reasonably, a stupid tax is what made it illegal in the first place.
 

OC for ME

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"A liberal that desires the state to enforce laws that are likely unconstitutional.....typical".
So laws that punish convicted felons for possesing/using a firearm are , in your opinion, unconstitutional and therefore not worthy of enforcement? So much for enforcing laws that are already on the books.

I could envision 3 different tax rates. If the pot is consumed it would be taxed as alcohol. If it were used as a cotton/wood replacement, ie. worn or written on, it would be taxed at a lower rate than the consumption tax. If it were used as a petroleum product replacement, it would provide a tax advantage. Revenue from these taxes would be split between the Fed and the states with a good portion of this revenue earmarked for education and infrastructure maintenance. They could reassign some of the DEA agents previously involved in marijuana interdiction to border patrol duties.
A firearm used in a crime should not be a aggravating factor of that crime. No, liberals place a special importance on a firearm over every other "weapon."

Dead is dead. Killing with a firearm does not equate to being dead-er. Liberals always emphasize the thing an not the criminal. Also, another liberal tactict to promote the false premise that the tool aggravates the base offense. Adding "convicted felons for....." is nothing more than a distraction so that you can seek cover for your liberal views when they are clearly exposed.
 

marshaul

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I could envision 3 different tax rates. If the pot is consumed it would be taxed as alcohol. If it were used as a cotton/wood replacement, ie. worn or written on, it would be taxed at a lower rate than the consumption tax. If it were used as a petroleum product replacement, it would provide a tax advantage. Revenue from these taxes would be split between the Fed and the states with a good portion of this revenue earmarked for education and infrastructure maintenance. They could reassign some of the DEA agents previously involved in marijuana interdiction to border patrol duties.

Oh goody! Instead of one tax we get three, for different circumstances.

It's amusing how agenda-driven it all is. Nowhere is there even mention of the basic, individual-based need to end prohibition.
 

marshaul

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A firearm used in a crime should not be a aggravating factor of that crime. No, liberals place a special importance on a firearm over every other "weapon."

Dead is dead. Killing with a firearm does not equate to being dead-er. Liberals always emphasize the thing an not the criminal. Also, another liberal tactict to promote the false premise that the tool aggravates the base offense. Adding "convicted felons for....." is nothing more than a distraction so that you can seek cover for your liberal views when they are clearly exposed.

It's supremely difficult to see objectivity or reason in this claim, given the fact that such "enhancements" are so commonly dreamed up by "law and order" republicans. If their leftist equivalents are slightly more likely to do this for firearms in particular, the rightists are similarly slightly more likely to do so with drugs, and not truly averse to doing so with guns either.

For a related issue, check out how many "conservative" Southern states basically deny self-defense rights to anyone having anything to do (even peripherally) with drugs, because obviously "illegal drugs + guns = drive-by style gang shooting", despite the fact that this is precisely the assigning of criminality to the thing(s) rather than the person and his actual behavior.
 
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OC for ME

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It's supremely difficult to see objectivity or reason in this claim, given the fact that such "enhancements" are so commonly dreamed up by "law and order" republicans. If their leftist equivalents are slightly more likely to do this for firearms in particular, the rightists are similarly slightly more likely to do so with drugs, and not truly averse to doing so with guns either.

For a related issue, check out how many "conservative" Southern states basically deny self-defense rights to anyone having anything to do (even peripherally) with drugs, because obviously "illegal drugs + guns = drive-by style gang shooting", despite the fact that this is precisely the assigning of criminality to the thing(s) rather than the person and his actual behavior.
The right to possess and to lawfully use guns is enshrined in our founding documents. Drugs? Not so much.

When a majority of the states make illegal drugs legal a drastic reduction in crime, specifically "gun crime", should be evident.

Politicians are likely to pass ridiculous laws because they must be seen as "doing something" in the eyes of the media.
 

marshaul

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The right to possess and to lawfully use guns is enshrined in our founding documents. Drugs? Not so much.

When a majority of the states make illegal drugs legal a drastic reduction in crime, specifically "gun crime", should be evident.

Politicians are likely to pass ridiculous laws because they must be seen as "doing something" in the eyes of the media.

Everything you say is true.

The bolded part represents, incidentally, one of the factors which link prohibition to the RKBA, or more specifically attempts to infringe upon it.
 
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Beretta92FSLady

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I am not a "pot" user. But I do see the federal government's unconstitutional restriction of a substance someone puts into their own body as a major symptom of of their overreaching. So to me it isn't silly.

You were squinting at me a couple of weeks ago at the Seattle Street gun Fiesta.--I figured you had some reefer before you got there...maybe it was my amazing presence.:p

Marijuana ought be legal; obviously the Government has this policy to rob us of our Second Amendment Rights.:rolleyes:
 

Beretta92FSLady

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Narcotics are property correct? Also SCOTUS has affirmed that citizens have a right to control their own body~~Roe V Wade

Roe was about privacy, not control over the body.

Narcotics are regulated...well, I know not why; narcotics are state sanctioned big pharma drug abuse.
 

WalkingWolf

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Roe was about privacy, not control over the body.

Narcotics are regulated...well, I know not why; narcotics are state sanctioned big pharma drug abuse.

How in the helll was Roe V Wade about privacy? The issue was clearly over abortion and a woman's right to have control over her body. That is not a exclusive right to women, all people have the right to have control over their own body.

Privacy? Really?
 

Beretta92FSLady

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How in the helll was Roe V Wade about privacy? The issue was clearly over abortion and a woman's right to have control over her body. That is not a exclusive right to women, all people have the right to have control over their own body.

Privacy? Really?

Don't cross me...I slice, like a God damned hammer:p:
The Court held that a woman's right to an abortion fell within the right to privacy (recognized in Griswold v. Connecticut) protected by the Fourteenth Amendment. The decision gave a woman total autonomy over the pregnancy during the first trimester and defined different levels of state interest for the second and third trimesters. As a result, the laws of 46 states were affected by the Court's ruling. http://www.oyez.org/cases/1970-1979/1971/1971_70_18

Actually, prior to Roe v. Wade, a woman did not have exclusive right over her body.
 
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WalkingWolf

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Don't cross me...I slice, like a God damned hammer:p:

Actually, prior to Roe v. Wade, a woman did not have exclusive right over her body.

The right to privacy had to do with a woman's body, ABORTION, and to make decisions concerning her body. But if you want to claim it is solely about privacy that even more makes drug laws unconstitutional. You are actually arguing in my favor, either way control over one's own body, or the privacy to possess and use drugs, Roe V Wade encompasses drug possession and use.

:p
 

marshaul

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Narcotics are property correct? Also SCOTUS has affirmed that citizens have a right to control their own body~~Roe V Wade

Whether the Roe v Wade reference is appropriate, your mind's in the right place. One doesn't have to like or use drugs to realize the validity of this viewpoint.

And, it's not necessarily a snarky thing either. I've known cancer patients who benefitted immensely from their right to control their body, and use the drugs that work best.
 

Beretta92FSLady

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The right to privacy had to do with a woman's body, ABORTION, and to make decisions concerning her body. But if you want to claim it is solely about privacy that even more makes drug laws unconstitutional. You are actually arguing in my favor, either way control over one's own body, or the privacy to possess and use drugs, Roe V Wade encompasses drug possession and use.

:p

Did I say Right? I meant Privilege...sorry about that!

Prisons are big business...which is why the FED's are clamping down harder on medications such as: Vicodin. There will be more incarcerations, for sure.
 
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