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Thread: Can we reload for self defense?

  1. #1
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    Can we reload for self defense?

    I saw HP bullets in my caliber at the gun store, but I was hesitate to grab it. Could this be consider the same as tampering with features of a gun, and having the lawyer say you did it with intent to harm?

    I guess I worded that right?

    .45 or bust
    Last edited by mpguy; 02-19-2013 at 07:18 PM.

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    Campaign Veteran MSG Laigaie's Avatar
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    Is there a law against the use, possession of HP rounds in your area? I know NJ throws a hissy fit about them. I carry them daily and reload them too, but I am in Wa State and we are a bit less restrictive than the other States
    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." -- George Washington

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    Re: Can we reload for self defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSG Laigaie View Post
    Is there a law against the use, possession of HP rounds in your area? I know NJ throws a hissy fit about them. I carry them daily and reload them too, but I am in Wa State and we are a bit less restrictive than the other States
    There is no restrictions on us using hollow points. It did get me thinking, if your reloading them, someone could throw the argument of hot loading ammo, or it's not factory specs.

    .45 or bust

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    Re: Can we reload for self defense?

    I guess reading this got me thinking about it

    Quote:
    18.2-308.3. Use or attempted use of restricted ammunition in commission or attempted commission of crimes prohibited; penalty.
    A. When used in this section:
    "Restricted firearm ammunition" applies to bullets, projectiles or other types of ammunition that are: (i) coated with or contain, in whole or in part, polytetrafluorethylene or a similar product, (ii) commonly known as "KTW" bullets or "French Arcanes," or (iii) any cartridges containing bullets coated with a plastic substance with other than lead or lead alloy cores, jacketed bullets with other than lead or lead alloy cores, or cartridges of which the bullet itself is wholly comprised of a metal or metal alloy other than lead. This definition shall not be construed to include shotgun shells or solid plastic bullets.
    B. It shall be unlawful for any person to knowingly use or attempt to use restricted firearm ammunition while committing or attempting to commit a crime. Violation of this section shall constitute a separate and distinct felony and any person found guilty thereof shall be guilty of a Class 5 felony.

    .45 or bust

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    Regular Member CCinMaine's Avatar
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    Re: Can we reload for self defense?

    HPs are designed to prevent over penetration. I have never worried about carrying them and never would worry unless they became illegal to use.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

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    Re: Can we reload for self defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by CCinMaine View Post
    HPs are designed to prevent over penetration. I have never worried about carrying them and never would worry unless they became illegal to use.

    Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
    That I understand. Again, these were for reloading, not from factory. I would have bought the box and put some cases aside, if I knew I wouldn't be sued, due to not using factory hollow points.

    .45 or bust

  7. #7
    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    I've never seen a case where the reloaded ammunition made a difference.

    I carry reloads.

    If a lawyer starts attacking my ammunition, that's a sure sign he's getting desperate.
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-19-2013 at 08:05 PM.
    "It's not important how many people I've killed. What's important is how I get along with the people who are still alive" - Jimmy the Tulip

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    *Opinion, not rooted in any legal precedent*

    Wouldn't worry about it. Such a low yield sort of thing to worry about. To my way of thinking, the odds of you using your weapon, having the ammo examined to the point that they determine it was handloads, then that info being used against you...are pretty slim. Even if some attorney puts forth some sort of "more deadly" argument, I'd think YOUR attorney would point out that you only shot in a situation where the law allowed deadly force...and there's nothing more deadly than deadly. HP's are accepted as self defense ammo when factory loaded, so by logic, they should be okay in your handloads. Heck, you can buy the very same bullets, powder, primers and brass that are used to build commercially available ammo. Would hope it doesn't matter who actually puts it together.

    ETA: If I load once fired Hornady brass with the same XTP I fired out of it the first time...could you tell the difference?
    Last edited by SaltH2OHokie; 02-19-2013 at 08:16 PM.

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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mpguy View Post
    That I understand. Again, these were for reloading, not from factory. I would have bought the box and put some cases aside, if I knew I wouldn't be sued, due to not using factory hollow points.

    .45 or bust
    If your that concerned, load your own for the range and carry factory ammo.

    I frequently carry frangible copper ammo in the summer - no over penetration and no ricochet.
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../frangible.htm
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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    This has been covered many times here.
    User put it to bed the last time.
    Handloads, factory loads, hollow points, soft points, FMJ....it doesn't make any difference.

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    Re: Can we reload for self defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    This has been covered many times here.
    User put it to bed the last time.
    Handloads, factory loads, hollow points, soft points, FMJ....it doesn't make any difference.
    I'm sorry for bringing it back up. When I did the search, it didn't really bring anything up that stood out, and nothing came up in the Virginia forums.

    .45 or bust

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    Re: Can we reload for self defense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    If your that concerned, load your own for the range and carry factory ammo.

    I frequently carry frangible copper ammo in the summer - no over penetration and no ricochet.
    http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita.../frangible.htm
    Just looking for the information, before I bought anything is all.

    .45 or bust

  13. #13
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    You are either justified to use deadly force or you are not justified. You can use a homemade shovel if you are justified, just as long as what you carry is not illegal in the state you are in at the time of use. Such as using a shotgun with barrel less than 18 inches, it will not make a difference on justification but it could be a charge for violating state and federal laws. This was the only way they could get a conviction on the subway vigilante, can't remember his name at the moment.
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    You are either justified to use deadly force or you are not justified. You can use a homemade shovel if you are justified, just as long as what you carry is not illegal in the state you are in at the time of use. Such as using a shotgun with barrel less than 18 inches, it will not make a difference on justification but it could be a charge for violating state and federal laws. This was the only way they could get a conviction on the subway vigilante, can't remember his name at the moment.
    You maybe are referring to Bernhard Goetz.
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grapeshot View Post
    You maybe are referring to Bernhard Goetz.
    Yes that is the one, I believe they eventually got him on a firearms charge.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
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    Moderator / Administrator Grapeshot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    Yes that is the one, I believe they eventually got him on a firearms charge.
    A jury found him not guilty of all charges except an illegal firearms possession count, for which he served two-thirds of a one-year sentence. The incident has been cited as a contributing factor to the groundswell[6] movement against urban crime and disorder, and successful National Rifle Association campaigns to loosen restrictions on the concealed carrying of firearms.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz

    He was also sued civily 11 years later and lost.
    The jury awarded Cabey $43 million $18 million for pain and suffering and $25 million in punitive damages
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernhard_Goetz#Civil_trial

    Sorry 'bout the Wiki-links, but they were quick and easy
    You will not rise to the occasion; you will fall back on your level of training. Archilochus, 650 BC

    Old and treacherous will beat young and skilled every time. Yata hey.

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    Campaign Veteran MAC702's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    ...This was the only way they could get a conviction on the subway vigilante, can't remember his name at the moment.
    How could you possibly forget:

    "What Bernie wants, Bernie Goetz!"

    That man not only saved his own life, but probably a dozen more in the aftermath of thugs wondering what other good guys might be illegally carrying defensive capability against their sharpened screwdrivers.

    He successfully defended himself from being screwdrivered by thugs, only to get expectedly screwed by the government.
    Last edited by MAC702; 02-19-2013 at 09:46 PM.
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    I think most here would agree that Massad Ayoob is an expert in self defense. He has a column in Combat Handguns Magazine called Self Defense and the Law. In the column he sites multiple cases about the particular topic of self defense that he is writing on in each column. He goes over each case and the outcome of each case. Some that he was personally involved in and others that he wasn't. In one of his columns years ago he advised against the use of reloads. Someone he wrote about had loaded 6 rounds of 38 SPCL ammo for self defense carry. They wound up in a self defense shooting that was justified and shot and killed an assailant with that ammo. The prosecutor went after the guy on the pretense that he had loaded powerful ammo and was looking for an excuse to shoot someone so that he could see how powerful his ammo was. There was an attempt by the defense to get the court to allow the testing of the remaining 4 rounds of ammo that the police removed from the revolver that had not been fired to prove the ammo was similar to and no more deadly or powerful than that of which the local police carried. The judge refused saying that it would result in the destroying of the remaining evidence. The prosecutor was able to convince the jury that the guy had done as accused and he was convicted and sent to prison.

    So much for the shooting being justified.

  19. #19
    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mobeewan View Post
    I think most here would agree that Massad Ayoob is an expert in self defense. He has a column in Combat Handguns Magazine called Self Defense and the Law. In the column he sites multiple cases about the particular topic of self defense that he is writing on in each column. He goes over each case and the outcome of each case. Some that he was personally involved in and others that he wasn't. In one of his columns years ago he advised against the use of reloads. Someone he wrote about had loaded 6 rounds of 38 SPCL ammo for self defense carry. They wound up in a self defense shooting that was justified and shot and killed an assailant with that ammo. The prosecutor went after the guy on the pretense that he had loaded powerful ammo and was looking for an excuse to shoot someone so that he could see how powerful his ammo was. There was an attempt by the defense to get the court to allow the testing of the remaining 4 rounds of ammo that the police removed from the revolver that had not been fired to prove the ammo was similar to and no more deadly or powerful than that of which the local police carried. The judge refused saying that it would result in the destroying of the remaining evidence. The prosecutor was able to convince the jury that the guy had done as accused and he was convicted and sent to prison.

    So much for the shooting being justified.
    Please give us a link to that specific case?
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    I don't have a link as I read it in Combat Handguns years ago and it is the reason I only carry factory loads.

    However I have a link for some other cases that went bad for some one carrying reloads straight from Ayoob himself. See post no 140.
    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...76#post2129976

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    Regular Member skeith5's Avatar
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    Re: Can we reload for self defense?

    I carry factory ammo and keep the box with the lot numbers in my safe. If I ever have to use my weapon defensively I don't want anything that could give the prosecutor extra "ammo" against me. Why risk it?

    If I used hand loaded ammo I would expect the prosecutor to use that to show the jury I wanted to make my ammo more lethal, or something equally silly. Since I don't get a choice in the jury I would hate to get people who don't have any firearms experience and might use that info to find me guilty of something.
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    Regular Member autosurgeon's Avatar
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    Re: Can we reload for self defense?

    A good shoot is a good shoot...

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    Anything I post may be my opinion and not the law... you are responsible to do your own verification.

    Blackstone (1753-1765) maintains that "the law holds that it is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer."

  23. #23
    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Not being an Massad Ayoob groupie, I'll have to take your word for what he says but it isn't his phone number in my cell phone and he won't be the one to defend me if I need someone.

    I'll stick with Dan's advice and worry more about the situation instead of what's in my gun.

  24. #24
    Regular Member TFred's Avatar
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    There are always stories like this. And they are probably true. That doesn't mean they are the correct application of law, or that the same thing would happen to you.

    I hear so many "wives tale" laws, I think we should start a thread for them, just to have a good place where we can shed light and cites to actual law.

    TFred

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFred View Post
    There are always stories like this. And they are probably true. That doesn't mean they are the correct application of law, or that the same thing would happen to you.

    I hear so many "wives tale" laws, I think we should start a thread for them, just to have a good place where we can shed light and cites to actual law.

    TFred
    Massad Ayoob and Peter Hathaway Capstick have two things in common TFred.

    1. Both want to sell what they write and both have a lot of white space to fill.

    2. Neither practice law in Virginia.

    Capstick is more entertaining though.
    Last edited by peter nap; 02-20-2013 at 08:23 AM.

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