Some questions before I get license

GregInChrist · Feb 19, 2013

First, thanks for the nice meeting place! I have been open carry for a while, it has been fine for me other then work. Looking to get concealed permit. I don't like the idea and almost dread getting one (personal idea and beliefs). Hoping you guys might be able to help me make my decision. I have a few questions. Please answer any you can I will number them to make it easier to respond to them.

Please forgive me if I missed these questions being answered on the forum, I have been looking around here and elsewhere for about a month or so and have not found answers to these specific questions.

1. If I don't get the permit and do conceal and I am found out by law enforcement what are the ramifications? Will the ramifications escalate on repeat offenses?

2. If I don't get the permit and I am carrying my side arm in my car and drive past a school, am I in violation of GFSZ law?

3. If I do not get the permit, and carry my side arm on my hip in the holster where it is safest, will/can I be charged with conceal?

4. If I do get the permit, can I conceal and open carry at the same time (secondary would be concealed)?

5. Does wisconsin have printing laws?

6. If I do get the permit can I decide to conceal in my vehicle but open carry in public?

7. If I get the permit am I subjecting my self to any regulations that I would not be subjected if I were only open carrying? IE. Law stating I am to keep my driver license and permit with me while I carry (If I understand correctly, this is only a $25 fine if I don't and I have 48 hours if I remember correctly to submit said documents to the law enforcement agency then employs the officer to have the charges drop... compliance with in said time frame drops the ticket)? Is this correct and are there other such regulations I would be subjecting my self to?

8. Are there any known advantages to open cary vs. concealed permit?

Thank you everyone for your time and energy, God bless you unto salvation through faith in the work of Jesus Christ on the cross!

Sincerely, Greg.

Interceptor_Knight · Feb 19, 2013

GregInChrist said:
1. If I don't get the permit and do conceal and I am found out by law enforcement what are the ramifications?

You may be charged and convicted with a misdemeanor

GregInChrist said:
2. If I don't get the permit and I am carrying my side arm in my car and drive past a school, am I in violation of GFSZ law?

Yes

GregInChrist said:
3. If I do not get the permit, and carry my side arm on my hip in the holster where it is safest, will/can I be charged with conceal?

Open Carry is not Concealed Carry. If your clothing obstructs the view of your weapon, you may be subject to a CCW citation.

GregInChrist said:
4. If I do get the permit, can I conceal and open carry at the same time (secondary would be concealed)?

Yes

GregInChrist said:
5. Does wisconsin have printing laws?

No. You are never required by law to conceal in WI.

GregInChrist said:
6. If I do get the permit can I decide to conceal in my vehicle but open carry in public?

Yes. You are never required to conceal in WI.

GregInChrist said:
7. If I get the permit am I subjecting my self to any regulations that I would not be subjected if I were only open carrying? IE. Law stating I am to keep my driver license and permit with me while I carry (If I understand correctly, this is only a $25 fine if I don't and I have 48 hours if I remember correctly to submit said documents to the law enforcement agency then employs the officer to have the charges drop... compliance with in said time frame drops the ticket)? Is this correct and are there other such regulations I would be subjecting my self to?

You are required to have either a WI DL or a WI State ID card in addition to your WI Carry License if you conceal carry a weapon allowed by your license.

GregInChrist said:
8. Are there any known advantages to open cary vs. concealed permit?

Less people may be offended with CC, You have the element of surprise if you are CC, OC may be a deterrent to an attack.

Teej · Feb 20, 2013

never required to conceal....unless you enter a place posted no visible weapons and/or are asked to conceal.

By the same token, most of us around here know of a place or two that only prohibits "concealed" weapons.

Sorcice · Feb 20, 2013

Intercepted answered exactly as I would. Note: the chances of a jacket flap falling over your gun are very high so getting a permit is worth it.

GreenCountyPete · Feb 20, 2013

the others covered your questions very well

one thing to note places you almost must conceal you may carry concealed into a tavern with a license but may not drink any alcohol , but can only open carry in a tavern with the class B licenses permission

your chances of driving through a school zone in this state are right up there with having a snow fall of greater than 1 inch in the winter in Wisconsin

the mess that a school zone can create is worth the 84 cents a month to me

from DOJ site
Can I carry a firearm, concealed or open, in a tavern?
A tavern is any establishment, other than a private or fraternal organization, in which
alcohol beverages are sold for consumption on the premises.
Wis
. Stat. § 941.237(1)(fm)
and (3)(cx).
No one may possess a handgun in a tavern unless
they are a law enforcement
officer, a correctional officer in the line of duty, a member of the US armed forces or
national guard in the line of duty, a private security person meeting certain criteria, the
tavern licensee, owner or manager or their authorized employee or agent, or have a
CCW license or valid out of state license.
Wis. Stat. § 941.237(2) and (3)(a)-(cx).
A peace officer, a Wisconsin CCW licensee, a qualified out-
of
-state licensee, a qualified
out
-
of
-state law enforcement officer and a former law enforcement officer
can carry a
concealed handgun
in a tavern and a CCW licensee and authorized out-
of
-state CCW
licensee can carry a concealed handgun in a tavern
only if they are not consuming
alcohol on the premises.
Wis. Stat. § 941.237(3)(cr), (ct), and (cx).

protias · Feb 20, 2013

Here's what you need to know: http://forum.opencarry.org/forums/s...rrying-(OC)-In-WI-Here-s-what-you-should-know

Interceptor_Knight said:
Less people may be offended with CC, You have the element of surprise if you are CC, OC may be a deterrent to an attack.

Element of surprise of what?

tomm1963 · Feb 20, 2013

I tell any 2A friendly peeps to get their permit if they plan on carrying or not. First off the massive number of permits issued shows the anti politicians that there is an immense voting block who have permits, so it may stymy potential anti legislation. Also the permit covers other items like knives, it may keep an overzealous LEO from issuing a concealed weapon charge for that box cutter or pocket knife in your pocket.

protias · Feb 20, 2013

tomm1963 said:
I tell any 2A friendly peeps to get their permit if they plan on carrying or not. First off the massive number of permits issued shows the anti politicians that there is an immense voting block who have permits, so it may stymy potential anti legislation. Also the permit covers other items like knives, it may keep an overzealous LEO from issuing a concealed weapon charge for that box cutter or pocket knife in your pocket.

Wait, when did we get permits?

oliverclotheshoff · Feb 20, 2013

it also lets you wander into a school school (NOT ON SCHOOL PROPERTY) without being charged with a gun free school zone violation at a state level

HandyHamlet · Feb 20, 2013

protias said:
Element of surprise of what?

Unicorns.

Ever try to sneak up on one of those bastards?

protias · Feb 20, 2013

oliverclotheshoff said:
it also lets you wander into a school school (NOT ON SCHOOL PROPERTY) without being charged with a gun free school zone violation at a state level

Do you mean a GFSZ? Well, under state law, it is merely a forfeiture.

HandyHamlet said:
Unicorns.

Ever try to sneak up on one of those bastards?

Every single night...Still trying to ride one of them.

MKEgal · Feb 20, 2013

Welcome to the forum.

Because the results of misunderstanding or relying on bad information can be so bad, even if someone seems to know what they're talking about, always read the law for yourself &/or talk to a lawyer (not a police officer).
It should be easy on OCDO because one of the forum rules is to cite to authority - people discussing laws should be posting links or at least quotes.

If you state a rule of law, it is incumbent upon you to try to cite, as best you can, to authority. Citing to authority, using links when available, is what makes OCDO so successful. An authority is a published source of law that can back your claim up - statute, ordinance, court case, newspaper article covering a legal issue, etc.

Here's one place you can look up WI law, by number or key word.
And that thread protias linked to will be a lot of reading, but very useful. Especially make time to watch the "don't talk to police" video. It's a law professor & a former LEO explaining why.

Greg said:
1. If I don't get the [strike]permit[/strike] license and do conceal and I am found out by law enforcement what are the ramifications? Will the ramifications escalate on repeat offenses?

WI statute 941.23 covers concealed carry. Without meeting an exception (of which a license is one), it is a class A misdemeanor.
The potential penalty is up to 9mo jail &/or up to $10,000 fine (and you will lose your pistol, to be destroyed by the State). See 939.51 (3)(a) for penalties, and 968.20 (1m)(b) for the law saying the pistol won't be returned to you.
The law does not provide for escalating penalties, but with the wide discretion in sentencing + human nature I'm pretty sure any judge would look at previous problems when deciding how much you'd pay for the current one (jail time &/or money).

2. If I don't get the [strike]permit[/strike] license and I am carrying my side arm in my car and drive past a school, am I in violation of GFSZ law?

Unless it's unloaded & encased, yes. And it's not just 'past' a school, it's within 1000' (about 3 blocks).
Fortunately, they have to prove that you knew the school was nearby, and it is now only a forfeiture (fine). Used to be a crime, which would mean they could steal & destroy your pistol. Now they can't.
But depending on where you are in the state, the LEO &/or DA might try to get you for ccw simply for being OC in the car. DAMHIK.

Here's WI statute 948.605 which deals with the "GF"SZ nonsense.
It references US Code 18USC922 (q)(2)(b) which also deals with the "GF"SZ nonsense.

3. If I do not get the [strike]permit[/strike] license, and carry my side arm on my hip in the holster where it is safest, will/can I be charged with conceal?

You can be arrested for nothing, charged with anything. Would it stick? Absent any other description, I'd say no.
But as others have pointed out, it doesn't take long for your coat to be blown over it. Also, there are some officers (and even departments) who (which) so hate armed law-abiding citizens that they might still try to charge someone with ccw for OC, & some officers will lie under oath. DAMHIK

4. If I do get the [strike]permit[/strike] license, can I conceal and open carry at the same time?

Yes. There's no law saying you can't. I do it pretty much whenever I'm out of the house.
If there's not a law against something, it's legal.

5. Does wisconsin have printing laws?

Money, license plates, etc., yes.
Being able to tell a gun is a gun, no.

Open carry is legal. There's no law saying a pistol has to be hidden.
If a misinformed person tries to tell you otherwise, ask them for the statute number. Usually they get very frustrated & upset, because they can't, because it doesn't exist.

6. If I do get the [strike]permit[/strike] license can I decide to conceal in my vehicle but open carry in public?

Yes. That little piece of plastic suddenly makes it OK to have a coat over your pistol while in your car. It isn't dangerous any more.

(Not being snarky at you, but at the stupidity of the people who make up these laws.)

7. If I get the [strike]permit[/strike] license am I subjecting my self to any regulations that I would not be subjected if I were only open carrying?

Others have already mentioned 941.237 titled "Carrying handgun where alcohol beverages may be sold and consumed".
See section (3)(cx), which says that a licensee may carry as long as s/he isn't drinking alcohol. It doesn't specify open or concealed, so both are legal with a license.
Section (3)(g) would apply to someone who's not licensed. (Or who is not in possession of a license... maybe it was left in the car with other ID documents.) They have to have permission from the owner or manager. Since they don't have a license, they can only (legally) carry openly. And the law says nothing about them being prohibited from drinking alcohol, other than to say it is illegal to be "materially impaired".
There have been numerous other discussions about drinking & carrying; we don't need to rehash them here. If you want to read them, the search function is your friend.

8. Are there any known advantages to open carry vs. concealed [strike]permit[/strike] license?

OC: Deterrance rather than reacting to a problem already in progress.
Comfort.
Ease of access in an emergency.

cc: Less likely a panty-twisting bedwetter will make a fake 911 call on you.
Less likely one of those aformentioned LEO who don't like LACs will hassle you.
Less likely one of the vanishingly rare "gun grabs" will even be attempted. [Sarcasm aside, in a crowded environment I think cc is safer. Unless it's a crowd of 2A-friendly people, then I don't worry.]

-

pkbites · Feb 21, 2013

One place you can conceal carry but not open carry is in some state buildings, like the Capitol.

But I believe this is just a "rule" or "policy" and not an actual law. If I'm wrong about that I'm sure I will be corrected.

Except on your own property or business CCW without the license is a pretty serious offense. While it is a misdemeanor and not a felony, it still can get you 9 months imprisonment and a 10K fine. Not exactly a parking ticket.

Lurchiron · Feb 21, 2013

2 days; no reply, and poorly worded to begin with...Hmmm, my Heathen "spidey-sense" says y'all got played by a flaming anti-gunner trying to take advantage of your Christian fellowship.

I'll wager 5 cheeseburgers to your 1 on it...

View attachment 10030

LOERetired · Feb 21, 2013

Gun Free School Zone (GFSZ)

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I have to disagree with this answer! If your driving a vehicle, and your drive past a School Zone, that you would be violating the GFSZ. You are driving on the public road which is not defined in the Statutes as part of the School grounds, or a violation.

Here is the meaning of a School Zone according to the statute:

948.605(C)

c) "School zone" means any of the following: [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]948.605(1)(c)1. 1. In or on the grounds of a school. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]948.605(1)(c)2. 2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

I refuse to believe that a LEO were to stop you for a traffic violation while you are driving past a school zone and within 1000 ft, that he/she would consider it a violation of the GFSZ.

I just don't interpret the statute as a violation in drive past a school with a firearm in your vehicle, loaded and on your side concealed, that it would be a violation of the GFSZ.

What are you suppose to do with your firearm while your driving past a School, oh wait, I'll be driving past a School today, I'm going to have to leave my firearm at home today.....NOT?

18 USC [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Sec[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]. 922 don't even address the issue of driving past a school with a firearm in the vehicle.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The following was taken from [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]B) Subparagraph (A) does not apply to the possession of a firearm -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](i) on private property not part of school grounds;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do so by the State in which the school zone is located or a political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]or[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]under law to receive the license;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](iii) that is -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](I) not loaded; and[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or B) Subparagraph [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](A) does not apply to the possession of a[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]firearm -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](i) on private property not part of school grounds;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](ii) if the individual possessing the firearm is licensed to do[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]so by the State in which the school zone is located or a[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]political subdivision of the State, and the law of the State or[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]political subdivision requires that, before an individual obtains[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]such a license, the law enforcement authorities of the State or[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]political subdivision verify that the individual is qualified[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]under law to receive the license;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](iii) that is -[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](I) not loaded; and[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](II) in a locked container, or a locked firearms rack that is on a motor vehicle;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](iv) by an individual for use in a program approved by a school in the school zone;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](v) by an individual in accordance with a contract entered into between a school in the school zone and the individual or an[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]employer of the individual;[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](vi) by a law enforcement officer acting in his or her official capacity; or[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]vii) that is unloaded and is possessed by an individual while traversing school premises for the purpose of gaining access to[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]public or private lands open to hunting, if the entry on school premises is authorized by school authorities.[/FONT]

pkbites · Feb 22, 2013

cowboyridn said:
I have to disagree with this answer! If your driving a vehicle, and your drive past a School Zone, that you would be violating the GFSZ. You are driving on the public road which is not defined in the Statutes as part of the School grounds, or a violation.

I refuse to believe that a LEO were to stop you for a traffic violation while you are driving past a school zone and within 1000 ft, that he/she would consider it a violation of the GFSZ.

I just don't interpret the statute as a violation in drive past a school with a firearm in your vehicle, loaded and on your side concealed, that it would be a violation of the GFSZ.

Well I am a LEO and you are incorrect. Sorry, but your interpretation is meaningless. But whose interpretation is not meaningless is the State Attorney Generals Office. I attended 2 separate state sponsored training seminars regarding the CCW law, and at both of them Assistant Attorney General Dave Perlman stated that a person carrying a loaded gun in their vehicle, whether openly or concealed, and was within 1000ft of a school was in violation of the states GFSZ law, unless they have a CCL.

Interceptor_Knight · Feb 22, 2013

cowboyridn said:
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]I have to disagree with this answer! If your driving a vehicle, and your drive past a School Zone, that you would be violating the GFSZ. You are driving on the public road which is not defined in the Statutes as part of the School grounds, or a violation.

Here is the meaning of a School Zone according to the statute:

948.605(C)

c) "School zone" means any of the following:
2. Within 1,000 feet from the grounds of a school.

The road is not private property. If you are on the road in front of the school, in your vehicle or otherwise, you are within 1000' of school grounds and you are not on private property so you are in violation unless your firearm is unloaded and encased or you qualify for one of the exceptions. Being a licensee is an exception. There is nothing to interpret. It is crystal clear, black and white.

Firearms Iinstuctor · Feb 22, 2013

pkbites If you want to see Dave Perlman wiggle a bit just press him on up holding the Wis consitution and the 2nd amendment. I use to press him on that and getting some firearms training.

But I coulds never get him to commit to coming to the range.

I always thought he was a hard core Doyle man I wonder how he's fairing under Van Holland

WalkingWolf · Feb 22, 2013

MKEgal said:
Welcome to the forum.
Because the results of misunderstanding or relying on bad information can be so bad, even if someone seems to know what they're talking about, always read the law for yourself &/or talk to a lawyer (not a police officer).

-

+1000 Because ultimately the giver of bad advice is not the one who ends up in jail wondering "how did this happen to me".

People who take legal advice from strangers when their hide is on the line are called convicts. Talk to a lawyer when it really counts.

pkbites · Feb 22, 2013

Firearms Iinstuctor said:
pkbites If you want to see Dave Perlman wiggle a bit just press him on up holding the Wis consitution and the 2nd amendment. I use to press him on that and getting some firearms training.

But I coulds never get him to commit to coming to the range.

I always thought he was a hard core Doyle man I wonder how he's fairing under Van Holland

Personally I like Dave, alot. But there are some issues that I am concerned about. I'm not talking about just gun related questions, I mean a variety of subjects. He has a Q&A forum on Wilenet where police officers ask legal questions. Over the years Dave has given some answers that conflicted with answers he gave in the past in response to the same question. It's rare that he does this, but he has done it. He also has given a few answers that I simply believe he is incorrect about.

But like I posted before, my opinion is moot. If the AG's office has taken a position of something, that is the way it's going to be enforced until either there is a repeal of a statute or a court decision on it that rules a different way.

Some questions before I get license

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