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Thread: My Open Letter To The Second Amendment Foundation

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    My Open Letter To The Second Amendment Foundation

    Hello

    I DO NOT support background checks as why do I need one to sell my personal property. This is an infringement on my liberty. And i will not stand by as you whittle away my rights for concessions on pistol purchase registration. Both are infringements on my liberties and rights. You should not be substituting one thing for another and Iam appalled that the SAF would even entertain this idea. Tell the legislature to stay out of my personal private affairs and support the people to freely associate and buy or sell their personal property without government intrusion. Shall not be infringed, Shall not be impaired.

    Sincerely
    XD45PlusP

    You can also tell them how you feel.

    http://www.ccrkba.org/index.php?page_id=2
    Last edited by XD45PlusP; 02-20-2013 at 02:08 PM.

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    I was quite disappointed to hear of their capitulation. I think the best we can now hope for is gridlock in Olympia.

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Re: My Open Letter To The Second Amendment Foundation

    Read this: http://www.examiner.com/article/fire...kground-checks

    SAF is a legal organization, not a lobbying group..that's CCRKBA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    Read this: http://www.examiner.com/article/fire...kground-checks

    SAF is a legal organization, not a lobbying group..that's CCRKBA
    Great link Gray, thanks! Please everyone read that article before passing judgement.

  5. #5
    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    A compromise is a compromise is a compromise....is a loss.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    Read this: http://www.examiner.com/article/fire...kground-checks

    SAF is a legal organization, not a lobbying group..that's CCRKBA
    Mission Statement The Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) is dedicated to promoting a better understanding about our Constitutional heritage to privately own and possess firearms. To that end, we carry on many educational and legal action programs designed to better inform the public about the gun control debate.

    http://www.saf.org/default.asp?p=mission
    Sounds like a lobby group to me. Now, are they a registered lobby group? I do not know.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Founder's Club Member - Moderator Gray Peterson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    Sounds like a lobby group to me. Now, are they a registered lobby group? I do not know.
    Education isn't to politicians, it's to the general public. Legal is filing lawsuits, like the case that took down IL's total gun carry ban, or striking down Chicago's handgun ban, or Chicago's total civilian range bans.

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    Regular Member John Hardin's Avatar
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    I was ready to shoot off a heated letter to CCRKBA when I saw this, but after reading the Examiner article I will not. Thank you for that article, Dave.

    Alan Gottlieb is using political tactics to achieve a bill that does not totally screw Washington gun owners, and he is in a good position to do that. Our job is to write our legislators in opposition to any "universal" background check bill, compromise or not. We are both fighting against an unrestricted "unlimited" background checks law; Alan is not betraying us.

    The best outcome is for no bill to pass. Ideally this would be because of popular opposition, but, as Alan says, it's possible the gun grabbers who proposed and support this won't tolerate a compromise that isn't "we get everything we want, you get nothing" and kill the bill completely. If that happens, then his tactics were sound.

    If "universal" background checks does pass in the face of opposition, then better it has been weakened through compromise as Alan proposes: no more retail sale records, CPL holders exempt, etc.

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    Regular Member 1911er's Avatar
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    Thanks Gray

    Thanks for the link Gray great read.
    I truly Love my Country, But the government scares the he!! out of me.

    DEMAND IT
    Congress SHALL NOT receive A salary greater than any service member and will be given EQUIVELANT insurance as any service member

    I came into this world kicking and screaming covered in someone else's blood. And if necessary to protect the Constitution of The United States of AMERICA. I will go out the same way

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
    Another obsequious, butt-kissing article by Workman, defending those who advocate "reasonable regulation" and compromise. What else is new?

    Mandating government control (whether by CPL or by background check at point of sale) of every legal firearm purchase, in exchange for supposedly doing away with a state database of some legal gun owners, is by no means a "win." Any mandatory background check can be used for de-facto registration, anyway. I will also guarantee that no mandatory background check provision is going to go away.

    Gottlieb defends his absurd position by whining, "But, but, but...this would be the first time a state registration requirement went away!" Big freakin' deal. First of all, it's not even a true registration requirement, because it can be easily (and legally) circumvented by private sales. Second, even CANADA did away with a NATIONWIDE, MANDATORY registry of all long guns, because gun owners RESISTED and REFUSED over a period of years. They didn't cave in and bend over the way Gottlieb is doing.

    I used to tell people to support the SAF, and how they weren't like the other limp-wristed "gun rights" organizations. Screw that. We don't need compromisers in leadership positions. The anti-gunners have been moving the goalposts in every discussion, and we acquiesce to playing ball on their new field, losing our rights in the process. We need to start at the position of "shall not be infringed," every single time. Good riddance to bad rubbish!
    Last edited by ManInBlack; 02-21-2013 at 01:07 PM.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Regular Member xxx.jakk.xxx's Avatar
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    I see this as a 2 steps forward 1 step back kind of a thing.

    Right now, this whole debate is a give and take. Everyone must give to take. It's what is causing both sides to both win and lose.

    I, just as most people on both sides, would like nothing more for this to be all take. Unfortunately it isn't all take and to seem reasonable, we have to be able to throw them a bone everyone in a while. This is why so many pro and anti gun bills are dieing. They are all take. We just have to make sure what we take is always more than we give so that the end game can come to be. If we're 50 behind but every move we take 2 while only giving 1, we will eventually win.

    With all of the changes being proposed, this bill will be almost entirely pro with just a little con. This will either progress us a little or kill it and leave us in no worse position.

    This is just my opinion, though. I may be young and naive.
    Last edited by xxx.jakk.xxx; 02-21-2013 at 02:23 PM.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Playing political games and gambling with our freedoms is a dangerous thing. We shouldn't be compromising, and just because some of us hold our nose and follow the law by getting CPL's and the requirements for it does not in any way rationalize a broader infringement.

    Constitutionally they have no right to keep those records and registration anyway, we should simply ask by what authority they do this........none.

    I understand why people think this is a win, but it is from a defeatist attitude that we are loosing anyway so lets loose a little less.......sadly this has been the history of compromise that has gotten us into the position we are in today.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member OC for ME's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxx.jakk.xxx View Post
    I see this as a 2 steps forward 1 step back kind of a thing.

    Right now, this whole debate is a give and take. Everyone must give to take. It's what is causing both sides to both win and lose.

    I, just as most people on both sides, would like nothing more for this to be all take. Unfortunately it isn't all take and to seem reasonable, we have to be able to throw them a bone everyone in a while. This is why so many pro and anti gun bills are dieing. They are all take. We just have to make sure what we take is always more than we give so that the end game can come to be. If we're 50 behind but every move we take 2 while only giving 1, we will eventually win.

    With all of the changes being proposed, this bill will be almost entirely pro with just a little con. This will either progress us a little or kill it and leave us in no worse position.

    This is just my opinion, though. I may be young and naive.
    The only way our liberty is maintained is to be sure that any "gun legislation" dies. Compromise is not a good thing where rights are concerned. ANYONE.....ANYONE!!! who advocates compromise re our liberty is not as liberty centric as they must be.

    Liberals count on us liberty centric citizens to compromise our liberty away in degrees.....absurd, simply absurd.
    "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson.

    "Better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent suffer" - English jurist William Blackstone.
    It is AFAIK original to me. Compromise is failure on the installment plan, particularly when dealing with so intractable an opponent as ignorance. - Nightmare

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OC for ME View Post
    The only way our liberty is maintained is to be sure that any "gun legislation" dies. Compromise is not a good thing where rights are concerned. ANYONE.....ANYONE!!! who advocates compromise re our liberty is not as liberty centric as they must be.

    Liberals count on us liberty centric citizens to compromise our liberty away in degrees.....absurd, simply absurd.
    +1
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    No more compromises period. If this bill passes I am moving out of Washington.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Hayes View Post
    No more compromises period. If this bill passes I am moving out of Washington.
    I hope it doesn't! I'd hate to have a fellow patriot like yourself leave.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

  17. #17
    State Researcher Bill Starks's Avatar
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    Gray,
    If this bill passes will this then also remove the requirement that FFL's will have to call in those with CPL's to NICS? or will there still be a double standard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    I hope it doesn't! I'd hate to have a fellow patriot like yourself leave.
    We have already been looking in Idaho, I am tired of financially supporting a state government that I disagree so strongly with. In the last year I have directly caused several companies to not relocate/start up in Washington. Washington is no longer freedom friendly, business friendly and taxes are about to go through the roof those things along with the coming firearms laws is a bit much for me to tolerate not to mention every day I live here I am financially contributing to the ending of my rights and freedom.

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    I for one would love to see the state gun registry go away. I'd swap that for locally executed background checks with no records retained and plenty of exemptions. If we can trade one really bad law in for one way less bad law AND fend off the gun grabbers at the same time, I like it. It's playing their "You're not willing to compromise" game against them - showing them what real compromise really is. It's no net loss of freedom.

  20. #20
    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    My Open Letter To The Second Amendment Foundation

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Starks View Post
    Gray,
    If this bill passes will this then also remove the requirement that FFL's will have to call in those with CPL's to NICS? or will there still be a double standard?
    Bill, there is a different bill in the house covering the CPL Exemption that should of been passed last year.
    Live Free or Die!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flopsweat View Post
    I for one would love to see the state gun registry go away. I'd swap that for locally executed background checks with no records retained and plenty of exemptions. If we can trade one really bad law in for one way less bad law AND fend off the gun grabbers at the same time, I like it. It's playing their "You're not willing to compromise" game against them - showing them what real compromise really is. It's no net loss of freedom.
    Canadian gun owners fought and got rid of a nationwide, mandatory registry of all long guns, and you think getting rid of a state registry which only covers some handguns, and can easily be circumvented, in exchange for mandatory government control over all legal purchases, is somehow a win?

    I must be in the twilight zone, or you must be getting your pillow talk from Piers.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ManInBlack View Post
    Canadian gun owners fought and got rid of a nationwide, mandatory registry of all long guns, and you think getting rid of a state registry which only covers some handguns, and can easily be circumvented, in exchange for mandatory government control over all legal purchases, is somehow a win?

    I must be in the twilight zone, or you must be getting your pillow talk from Piers.
    I expected some insults. Not surprised.

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    The bill would create a defacto ban on private sales by requiring something that private sellers have no way to obtain (the background check system is NOT open to the public and there is no provision in this bill to open it up to the public). That is not "taking 2 and giving 1" that's "taking 0 and giving 100%".

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    It's a well written article that outlines that the proposal by the SAF would certainly make the bill easier to stomach, but I'd still have one bad case of heartburn.


    To me the very idea of a background check violates the concept of "innocent until proven guilty." Every time you buy a gun from an FFL, or at a WAC show, you were presumed to have possibly been guilty and were forced to prove your innocence before you could proceed! What a crock!

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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Flopsweat View Post
    I expected some insults. Not surprised.
    Lol...if you think that was an insult, you'd better stock up on skin thickening cream.
    Total ignorance: an Obama supporter's stock in trade
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    All the talk about Overthrowing Big Government, Revolution, etc., it's just another one of those nostalgic ideas that individuals have idealized.
    O RLY?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...and_rebellions
    Quote Originally Posted by Beretta92FSLady View Post
    Books are overrated; and so is history.

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