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Thread: Hi everyone!

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    Question Hi everyone!

    Hello! Im a new member and relatively (<1yr.) new gun owner (Sig Sauer SigPRO 9mm). I plan to start to OC tomorrow, as Ive been unaware I could do that. I equated carrying of any kind to having the CHP. Anyway, here's my question:

    I am currently in the process of opening a restaurant/bar in RVA and cant seem to find anything about the laws pertaining to business owners carrying a firearm, restaurants specifically. I know, as a citizen, you cant carry in a place that has a liquor license. So here lies my predicament. Any info is greatly appreciated.

    - Johnny

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    18.2-308. Personal protection; carrying concealed weapons; when lawful to carry; penalty.

    A. If any person carries about his person, hidden from common observation, (i) any pistol, revolver, or other weapon designed or intended to propel a missile of any kind by action of an explosion of any combustible material; (ii) any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack; (iii) any flailing instrument consisting of two or more rigid parts connected in such a manner as to allow them to swing freely, which may be known as a nun chahka, nun chuck, nunchaku, shuriken, or fighting chain; (iv) any disc, of whatever configuration, having at least two points or pointed blades which is designed to be thrown or propelled and which may be known as a throwing star or oriental dart; or (v) any weapon of like kind as those enumerated in this subsection, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. A second violation of this section or a conviction under this section subsequent to any conviction under any substantially similar ordinance of any county, city, or town shall be punishable as a Class 6 felony, and a third or subsequent such violation shall be punishable as a Class 5 felony. For the purpose of this section, a weapon shall be deemed to be hidden from common observation when it is observable but is of such deceptive appearance as to disguise the weapon's true nature. It shall be an affirmative defense to a violation of clause (i) regarding a handgun, that a person had been issued, at the time of the offense, a valid concealed handgun permit.

    B. This section shall not apply to any person while in his own place of abode or the curtilage thereof.

    Except as provided in subsection J1, this section shall not apply to:

    1. Any person while in his own place of business;

    2. Any law-enforcement officer, wherever such law-enforcement officer may travel in the Commonwealth;

    3. Any person who is at, or going to or from, an established shooting range, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;

    4. Any regularly enrolled member of a weapons collecting organization who is at, or going to or from, a bona fide weapons exhibition, provided that the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;

    5. Any person carrying such weapons between his place of abode and a place of purchase or repair, provided the weapons are unloaded and securely wrapped while being transported;

    This is what i have found and as far as i understand this means that you may carry. If i am wrong someone correct me or point me in the right direction. This is all assuming that you have a CHP.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chefjohnny View Post
    Hello! Im a new member and relatively (<1yr.) new gun owner (Sig Sauer SigPRO 9mm). I plan to start to OC tomorrow, as Ive been unaware I could do that. I equated carrying of any kind to having the CHP. Anyway, here's my question:

    I am currently in the process of opening a restaurant/bar in RVA and cant seem to find anything about the laws pertaining to business owners carrying a firearm, restaurants specifically. I know, as a citizen, you cant carry in a place that has a liquor license. So here lies my predicament. Any info is greatly appreciated.

    - Johnny
    Hello Johnny. welcome to the site!

    You can carry in a place that serves liquor.

    If you have a CHP, you can't drink if you're concealing but you can (It is frowned on by many of us) if you are open carrying.

    Also...You are allowed to conceal WITHOUT A PERMIT in your own place of business.

    A couple of recommendations.

    1. Join VCDL and sign up for the email alerts.

    2. Join us for our monthly dinners which will be posted at the top of this forum around the 1st of the month.

    3. Come to the Saturday Breakfast. We'll be happy to answer your questions in person.

    4. Don't ask me anything about CHP's.

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    Regular Member Sesrun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Hello Johnny. welcome to the site!

    You can carry in a place that serves liquor.

    If you have a CHP, you can't drink if you're concealing but you can (It is frowned on by many of us) if you are open carrying.
    ...[snip]...
    Cite of 2010 Law Change to 18.2-308 (J3)
    Last edited by Sesrun; 02-22-2013 at 04:13 AM.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    What he just cited was where the restaurant bill passed allowing Chipper to carry in a place that serves drinks.

    Open carry has always been legal in those places.

    3. No person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia may consume an alcoholic beverage while on the premises. A person who carries a concealed handgun onto the premises of such a restaurant or club and consumes alcoholic beverages is guilty of a Class 2 misdemeanor. However, nothing in this subsection shall apply to a federal, state, or local law-enforcement officer
    Last edited by peter nap; 02-22-2013 at 04:24 AM.

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    Regular Member HearseGuy's Avatar
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    Welcome Johnny!

    Glad you've decided to OC. But definitely take some more time to do some research. Know the laws before you go out.

    It is perfectly legal to OC in a restaurant or bar that serves alcohol, provided that it is not posted at the entrance that you cant do so. It is also legal to consume alcohol while OCing if you choose. (See Peters post)

    Welcome again to OCDO!

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    Thanks for the info everyone. Much appreciated. I'll definitely try to make it to one of the events in the near future. Although with opening a restaurant, free time is always a luxury I don't often have. Cheers.

    - Johnny

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    Regular Member scouser's Avatar
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    You might also want to consider looking into this course http://proactiveshooters.com/general...d-carry-in-va/ that is offered by a well respected member of this forum. He goes into a lot of information you really should be aware of if you're going to carry whether openly or concealed. In my opinion it's probably better to give up a little of your time and money now to learn in a classroom, than to give up a LOT of your time and money to fight in a courtroom.

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    Regular Member mtbinva's Avatar
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    Hi everyone!

    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    You might also want to consider looking into this course http://proactiveshooters.com/general...d-carry-in-va/ that is offered by a well respected member of this forum. He goes into a lot of information you really should be aware of if you're going to carry whether openly or concealed. In my opinion it's probably better to give up a little of your time and money now to learn in a classroom, than to give up a LOT of your time and money to fight in a courtroom.
    +1

    Although I've not taken this course as of yet, there are a lot if people even outside of this forum that speak highly if it.
    Chance favors only the prepared mind.

    Louis Pasteur


  10. #10
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scouser View Post
    You might also want to consider looking into this course http://proactiveshooters.com/general...d-carry-in-va/ that is offered by a well respected member of this forum. He goes into a lot of information you really should be aware of if you're going to carry whether openly or concealed. In my opinion it's probably better to give up a little of your time and money now to learn in a classroom, than to give up a LOT of your time and money to fight in a courtroom.

    Quote Originally Posted by mtbinva View Post
    +1

    Although I've not taken this course as of yet, there are a lot if people even outside of this forum that speak highly if it.
    Thank you, guys for the nice comments about my class. I just did this class today, as a matter of fact. Its a lot of info, but we hope that people are more aware of things they need to know about carrying when they leave the class.

    Jim
    James Reynolds

    NRA Certified Firearms Instructor - Pistol, Shotgun, Home Firearms Safety, Refuse To Be A Victim
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    NRA Certified Chief Range Safety Officer
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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HearseGuy View Post
    Welcome Johnny!

    Glad you've decided to OC. But definitely take some more time to do some research. Know the laws before you go out.

    It is perfectly legal to OC in a restaurant or bar that serves alcohol, provided that it is not posted at the entrance that you cant do so. It is also legal to consume alcohol while OCing if you choose. (See Peters post)

    Welcome again to OCDO!
    It is not illegal to carry into a place of business that has posted a "No Guns"' sign. What could happen is that you open yourself up to a charge of trespassing if the owner or manager wishes to press charges.

    Example. Suppose you have a friend who owns a small jewelry shop and has posted a "No Guns" sign on his door. You go in without seeing the sign at first, see it as the door starts to close after you have entered, then turn to walk out. The owner sees you and says, "It's okay, come on in". That is his choice to make and he has every right to extend the courtesy of coming into his business.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Regular Member optiksguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    It is not illegal to carry into a place of business that has posted a "No Guns"' sign. What could happen is that you open yourself up to a charge of trespassing if the owner or manager wishes to press charges.
    I thought it was only trespassing if you refused to leave after having been asked, regardless of any signage?

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optiksguy View Post
    I thought it was only trespassing if you refused to leave after having been asked, regardless of any signage?
    18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.
    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1,19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.
    (Code 1950, 18.1-173; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1982, c. 169; 1987, cc. 625, 705; 1991, c. 534; 1998, cc. 569,684; 2011, c. 195.)

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    It is not illegal to carry into a place of business that has posted a "No Guns"' sign. What could happen is that you open yourself up to a charge of trespassing if the owner or manager wishes to press charges.

    Example. Suppose you have a friend who owns a small jewelry shop and has posted a "No Guns" sign on his door. You go in without seeing the sign at first, see it as the door starts to close after you have entered, then turn to walk out. The owner sees you and says, "It's okay, come on in". That is his choice to make and he has every right to extend the courtesy of coming into his business.
    A "No Guns" by itself isn't the same as a "No Trespassing" sign. The person in charge, or his designee, must first ask you to leave the premises. If you fail to do so, then you may be subject to a charge of trespass. Be careful here, though. Very often you'll be told "You can't have that in here.", or words to that effect. Not quite the same as being told to leave the premises, but don't press the issue. (Sometimes, they'll ask you to conceal your firearm. If you have a CHP, then comply.) The idea is to avoid a confrontation. Ask the individual for his/her name and title, then write a letter to management later.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    A "No Guns" by itself isn't the same as a "No Trespassing" sign. The person in charge, or his designee, must first ask you to leave the premises. If you fail to do so, then you may be subject to a charge of trespass. Be careful here, though. Very often you'll be told "You can't have that in here.", or words to that effect. Not quite the same as being told to leave the premises, but don't press the issue. (Sometimes, they'll ask you to conceal your firearm. If you have a CHP, then comply.) The idea is to avoid a confrontation. Ask the individual for his/her name and title, then write a letter to management later.
    I've heard that bandied around here for a year or so now. Any case law to support it?

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    Hi everyone!

    Trespassing by signage is difficult to convict upon if the defense attorney reads Baker v. Commonwealth.

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by palerider116 View Post
    Trespassing by signage is difficult to convict upon if the defense attorney reads Baker v. Commonwealth.
    Difficult does not prohibit it from happening. While I agree that most courts prefer the person to be confronted and told to leave, I keep hearing that is the law on this board.

    If it is, I'd like to see a Cite and Baker doesn't make that clear.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    18.2-119. Trespass after having been forbidden to do so; penalties.
    If any person without authority of law goes upon or remains upon the lands, buildings or premises of another, or any portion or area thereof, after having been forbidden to do so, either orally or in writing, by the owner, lessee, custodian, or the agent of any such person, or other person lawfully in charge thereof, or after having been forbidden to do so by a sign or signs posted by or at the direction of such persons or the agent of any such person or by the holder of any easement or other right-of-way authorized by the instrument creating such interest to post such signs on such lands, structures, premises or portion or area thereof at a place or places where it or they may be reasonably seen, or if any person, whether he is the owner, tenant or otherwise entitled to the use of such land, building or premises, goes upon, or remains upon such land, building or premises after having been prohibited from doing so by a court of competent jurisdiction by an order issued pursuant to 16.1-253, 16.1-253.1, 16.1-253.4, 16.1-278.2 through 16.1-278.6, 16.1-278.8, 16.1-278.14, 16.1-278.15, 16.1-279.1,19.2-152.8, 19.2-152.9 or 19.2-152.10 or an ex parte order issued pursuant to 20-103, and after having been served with such order, he shall be guilty of a Class 1 misdemeanor. This section shall not be construed to affect in any way the provisions of 18.2-132 through 18.2-136.
    (Code 1950, 18.1-173; 1960, c. 358; 1975, cc. 14, 15; 1982, c. 169; 1987, cc. 625, 705; 1991, c. 534; 1998, cc. 569,684; 2011, c. 195.)
    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    A "No Guns" by itself isn't the same as a "No Trespassing" sign. The person in charge, or his designee, must first ask you to leave the premises. If you fail to do so, then you may be subject to a charge of trespass. Be careful here, though. Very often you'll be told "You can't have that in here.", or words to that effect. Not quite the same as being told to leave the premises, but don't press the issue. (Sometimes, they'll ask you to conceal your firearm. If you have a CHP, then comply.) The idea is to avoid a confrontation. Ask the individual for his/her name and title, then write a letter to management later.
    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I've heard that bandied around here for a year or so now. Any case law to support it?
    The trespassing statute that Peter Nap cited requires that the (potential) violator be informed that his presence is not allowed on the property. The distinction I make between the "No Guns" sign and a "No Trespassing" sign is that the former prohibits a specific activity within the boundaries of the property by all who might enter the property, whereas the the latter is not activity dependent and bars one's presence altogether.
    Last edited by 2a4all; 02-24-2013 at 11:45 AM.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    The trespassing statute that Peter Nap cited requires that the (potential) violator be informed that his presence is not allowed on the property. The distinction I make between the "No Guns" sign and a "No Trespassing" sign is that the former prohibits a specific activity within the boundaries of the property by all who might enter the property, whereas the the latter is not activity dependent and bars one's presence altogether.

    Since they use the same statute to arrest solicitors, soliciting in areas with No Soliciting Signs, I wouldn't count on that being written in stone.

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    Regular Member 2a4all's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    Since they use the same statute to arrest solicitors, soliciting in areas with No Soliciting Signs, I wouldn't count on that being written in stone.
    I was basing my response in part on the discussions I've had with security personnel who've informed me that firearms were not permitted on their premises, and who admitted that their attorneys told them that all they could do was ask me to leave. If I didn't, I'd be subject to trespass. (See my post about my experience at the Mariners Museum.)

    Then we have this in Newport News (exceptions omitted for brevity):

    Sec. 36-15. - Required; exceptions.
    (a)It shall be unlawful for any person not engaged in a duly licensable business in the city to solicit and take orders for the future delivery of goods, wares, merchandise, magazines, photographs to be taken in the future or any other article on the public streets, lanes or alleys, or in any public place adjacent to the same, or from house to house, in the city, without having first obtained a permit so to do from the chief of police.

    Many homes in my neighborhood (including mine) display "No Soliciting" signs, which are sometimes ignored. They often say they're not soliciting, since they're not trying to sell me anything. When I tell them they are trespassing, they leave. Maybe it's because I'm OCing when I answer the door. Unless a solicitor's permit is required (above), I don't think they'll get arrested unless a complaint is filed. I'll bring this topic up at my next Neighborhood Watch meeting.
    A law-abiding citizen should be able to carry his personal protection firearm anywhere that an armed criminal might go.

    Member VCDL, NRA

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by optiksguy View Post
    I thought it was only trespassing if you refused to leave after having been asked, regardless of any signage?
    Quote Originally Posted by 2a4all View Post
    A "No Guns" by itself isn't the same as a "No Trespassing" sign. The person in charge, or his designee, must first ask you to leave the premises. If you fail to do so, then you may be subject to a charge of trespass. Be careful here, though. Very often you'll be told "You can't have that in here.", or words to that effect. Not quite the same as being told to leave the premises, but don't press the issue. (Sometimes, they'll ask you to conceal your firearm. If you have a CHP, then comply.) The idea is to avoid a confrontation. Ask the individual for his/her name and title, then write a letter to management later.
    That's why I said.

    "What could happen is that you open yourself up to a charge of trespassing if the owner or manager wishes to press charges."

    If the owner/manager does not wish to press charges, then you are not going to be charged with trespassing. If he does, and naturally he would have asked/told you to leave, then guess what... you're going to be charged.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Accomplished Advocate peter nap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernBoy View Post
    That's why I said.

    "What could happen is that you open yourself up to a charge of trespassing if the owner or manager wishes to press charges."

    If the owner/manager does not wish to press charges, then you are not going to be charged with trespassing. If he does, and naturally he would have asked/told you to leave, then guess what... you're going to be charged.
    I'll be honest, I've never seen an OC'er arrested for trespassing for just ignoring the sign. I believe it can be done though. The problems with Solicitors or anything forbidden in writing, has been with city PD's that have been given authorization to act as the owners agent on a piece of property.

    That's a fairly common thing in Cities and Burb Counties.

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    Regular Member SouthernBoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'll be honest, I've never seen an OC'er arrested for trespassing for just ignoring the sign. I believe it can be done though. The problems with Solicitors or anything forbidden in writing, has been with city PD's that have been given authorization to act as the owners agent on a piece of property.

    That's a fairly common thing in Cities and Burb Counties.
    Good to know. Thanks for the heads up. I don't go looking for signs and if I don't see them, well... they're not there. I suppose if what you wrote here was the case in some business or shopping center, I could be in for a big surprise.
    Last edited by SouthernBoy; 02-24-2013 at 10:22 PM.
    In the final seconds of your life, just before your killer is about to dispatch you to that great eternal darkness, what would you rather have in your hand? A cell phone or a gun?

    Si vis pacem, para bellum.

    America First!

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    Welcome aboard

    Quote Originally Posted by chefjohnny View Post
    Hello! Im a new member and relatively (<1yr.) new gun owner (Sig Sauer SigPRO 9mm). I plan to start to OC tomorrow, as Ive been unaware I could do that. I equated carrying of any kind to having the CHP. Anyway, here's my question:

    I am currently in the process of opening a restaurant/bar in RVA and cant seem to find anything about the laws pertaining to business owners carrying a firearm, restaurants specifically. I know, as a citizen, you cant carry in a place that has a liquor license. So here lies my predicament. Any info is greatly appreciated.

    - Johnny
    The others have addressed the carry issue, but I would like to know what type of restaurant, the location, and if it will be 2A friendly?

    I am always looking for a good place to take Gr8legs,the wife/boss.

  25. #25
    Regular Member ProShooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peter nap View Post
    I'll be honest, I've never seen an OC'er arrested for trespassing for just ignoring the sign. I believe it can be done though.
    +1 I believe so as well.
    James Reynolds

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    Instructor Bio - http://proactiveshooters.com/about-us/

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