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Thread: Federal court says concealed gun permits not protected by 2nd Amendment

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    Federal court says concealed gun permits not protected by 2nd Amendment

    A federal appeals court has ruled that permits allowing people to carry concealed weapons are not protected by the Second Amendment.

    The ruling by the 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals was issued Friday in a case involving Washington state resident Gray Peterson.

    http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...eapons-ruling/

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    Regular Member Coyote_VS_ACME's Avatar
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    The ruling is fair IMHO, even as a WA resident now.

    Bear with me here, but in the end the overall tone is good for us in a way because the court does see some variance of a states rule or law that does not violate the Constitution as valid.

    In other words, if my state decided that any federal law that violated my rights - and were talking about the 2A that is a right, not a privlidge like a Drivers license - is deemed wrong, then on the state level, I have some backing.

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    Regular Member Difdi's Avatar
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    It's quite true, it doesn't. Providing of course that you can open carry a gun without needing a concealed weapons license.

    If you need a license to carry open or otherwise, then denying the license is a violation of the right to keep and bear arms.

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    It does infringe.

    The courts can't be trusted.

    I believe Denver does not allow OC without a Concealed Permit, so how are you going to keep and bear arms? How will you travel in a car in that state?

    Now if he had Open Carried and had pushed that issue maybe the courts would have ruled differently. But that would mean a possible arrest and a night in the pokey.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

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    Regular Member amlevin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It does infringe.

    The courts can't be trusted.

    I believe Denver does not allow OC without a Concealed Permit, so how are you going to keep and bear arms? How will you travel in a car in that state?

    Now if he had Open Carried and had pushed that issue maybe the courts would have ruled differently. But that would mean a possible arrest and a night in the pokey.
    You are correct. Denver (which is both a City and County) requires a permit to carry concealed OR open. I lived near there for 10 years. Denver thinks that THEY run the State.
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    Opt-Out Members BigDave's Avatar
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    All this does is to affirm what we already know, there is a difference in Constitutional Carry versus Licensed To Carry by the State.

    Another example of how one approaches the courts can often do determine the out come, if this suit was about Constitutional Carry (possession) instead of mode of carry (open or concealed), would it have had a better chance to come out in favor of Peterson?
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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It does infringe.

    The courts can't be trusted.

    I believe Denver does not allow OC without a Concealed Permit, so how are you going to keep and bear arms? How will you travel in a car in that state?

    Now if he had Open Carried and had pushed that issue maybe the courts would have ruled differently. But that would mean a possible arrest and a night in the pokey.
    You are correct about Denver, Like Philly...only place in the state with no carry without a license.

    I would like to see these arguments go to "any carry" without a license, rather than pushing the right to conceal. Personally, my idea is there sould be some form of unlicensed carry...If that is only open carry, that is ok, because you can carry.

    Unfortunately, Peterson is a CC advocate. I do not think he sees the advantage of the "any unlicensed" argument.

    If Kachalski gets cert, this may take care of the problem anyway. If Madigan (IL Moore V Madigan) asks for cert, she will most likely get it. Exactly what that would do I am not sure...but Moore V Madigan is a definate "any Carry" argument.

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    Will Gray take this to the SCOTUS then? I don't quite understand why he needed to file a lawsuit in the first place... it sounds like Colorado only wants its citizens and not out of state visitors to have Concealed Permits. I dunno... it sounds like the gun control nuts are celebrating over this. Was this a defeat? It sounds like no one is THAT upset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sudden valley gunner View Post
    It does infringe.

    The courts can't be trusted.

    .
    I don't really need to have a court opinion to tell me what the 2nd amendment means...

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    Activist Member golddigger14s's Avatar
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    My take, if CC is not protected then we have to OC right?
    "The beauty of the Second Amenment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hermannr View Post
    <snip>
    Unfortunately, Peterson is a CC advocate. I do not think he sees the advantage of the "any unlicensed" argument.

    If Kachalski gets cert, this may take care of the problem anyway. If Madigan (IL Moore V Madigan) asks for cert, she will most likely get it. Exactly what that would do I am not sure...but Moore V Madigan is a definate "any Carry" argument.
    No Gray is not a CC advocate, he worked very hard in this state to get all of the OC training bulletins.

    Quote Originally Posted by tannerwaterbury View Post
    Will Gray take this to the SCOTUS then? I don't quite understand why he needed to file a lawsuit in the first place... it sounds like Colorado only wants its citizens and not out of state visitors to have Concealed Permits. I dunno... it sounds like the gun control nuts are celebrating over this. Was this a defeat? It sounds like no one is THAT upset.
    As of now he is considering the options. Something like this 2 weeks to consider an em banc panel of the 10th circuit or 90 days for SCOTUS review. If you read the decision the 10th used a lot of legal gymnastics to get to this decision and ignored some very pertinent facts.

    Gray can not carry in CO, where he visits frequently, because Denver only alows licensed carry (OC or CC), thus is 2nd A right is denied.
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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    And let's not forget that one must possess a license issued by the same state a school zone is in in order to legally carry a loaded firearm within 1000' of a school.
    Good point.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Regular Member sudden valley gunner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    No Gray is not a CC advocate, he worked very hard in this state to get all of the OC training bulletins.



    As of now he is considering the options. Something like this 2 weeks to consider an em banc panel of the 10th circuit or 90 days for SCOTUS review. If you read the decision the 10th used a lot of legal gymnastics to get to this decision and ignored some very pertinent facts.

    Gray can not carry in CO, where he visits frequently, because Denver only alows licensed carry (OC or CC), thus is 2nd A right is denied.
    All while not Open Carrying...and then in those same districts the cops harassed many of those who OC'd. Action speaks louder than words.
    I am not anti Cop I am just pro Citizen.

    U.S. v. Minker, 350 US 179, at page 187
    "Because of what appears to be a lawful command on the surface, many citizens, because
    of their respect for what only appears to be a law, are cunningly coerced into waiving their
    rights, due to ignorance." (Paraphrased)

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    Federal court says concealed gun permits not protected by 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    And let's not forget that one must possess a license issued by the same state a school zone is in in order to legally carry a loaded firearm within 1000' of a school.
    Even though that seems to be a reasonable interpretation--and the most prevalent one--it isn't exactly what the law says. I don't want to be the test case, but "is licensed," as a verb, can be interpreted to mean "has a physical license" OR "is allowed."


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    Regular Member hermannr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eye95 View Post
    Even though that seems to be a reasonable interpretation--and the most prevalent one--it isn't exactly what the law says. I don't want to be the test case, but "is licensed," as a verb, can be interpreted to mean "has a physical license" OR "is allowed."


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    The problem with CO (Denver) and PA (Philly) is the state allows for unlicensed OC..Problem solved. A secondary problem with CO is they do not issue or recognize Non-resident permits, and they do not recognize all state's permits.

    So, a WA CPL is not recognized by CO. You cannot obtain a Non-resident CO permit because, first they do not exist, or you are not military stationed in CO which they consider as a special class of "resident" for permit purposes. While CO allows unlicensed Open Carry, Denver does not. That is what this suit is about.

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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    CC in CO

    It would have been a helluva lot cheaper to just get an AZ or UT CC permit. You can get both as a non-resident of the state, and they both have reciprocity with CO.
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    Federal court says concealed gun permits not protected by 2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    It would have been a helluva lot cheaper to just get an AZ or UT CC permit. You can get both as a non-resident of the state, and they both have reciprocity with CO.
    Sometimes one sues to tackle a bigger or different issue. In this case that is what Gray has done if I remember correctly.
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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Sometimes one sues to tackle a bigger or different issue. In this case that is what Gray has done if I remember correctly.
    I agree, he was. I wasn't contending that getting an AZ or UT CC permit was the approach he should have taken. I was merely observing that it would have been a helluva lot cheaper. Personally, I admire Gray and the activism he exercises.
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    If concealed carry is not 2A then the door is open for mandating open carry in all 50 states. Before CC was a 2A option recognized by the courts, it no longer is, they must allow open carry.

    All laws now tying open carry to a privilege cards are NOW unconstitutional. Including our own in NC for restaurant carry. This ruling may be the best thing that could have happened to open carry.
    Last edited by WalkingWolf; 02-25-2013 at 02:19 PM.
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    Regular Member rapgood's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    If concealed carry is not 2A then the door is open for mandating open carry in all 50 states. Before CC was a 2A option recognized by the courts, it no longer is, they must allow open carry.

    All laws now tying open carry to a privilege cards are NOW unconstitutional. Including our own in NC for restaurant carry. This ruling may be the best thing that could have happened to open carry.
    Well... the ruling applies only to districts in the 10th Circuit, comprising:
    District of Colorado
    District of Kansas
    District of New Mexico
    Eastern District of Oklahoma
    Northern District of Oklahoma
    Western District of Oklahoma
    District of Utah
    District of Wyoming
    Rev. Robert Apgood, Esq.

    A right cannot be lost by exercising it. McDonald v. Chicago, 561 U.S. 3025, 130 S. Ct. 3020, 3021, 177 L. Ed. 2d 894 (2010) (citing Near v. Minn., 283 U.S. 697 (1931)).

    Although IAAL, anything I say here is not legal advice. No conversations we may have privately or otherwise in this forum constitute the formation of an attorney-client relationship, and are not intended to do so.

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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rapgood View Post
    Well... the ruling applies only to districts in the 10th Circuit, comprising:
    District of Colorado
    District of Kansas
    District of New Mexico
    Eastern District of Oklahoma
    Northern District of Oklahoma
    Western District of Oklahoma
    District of Utah
    District of Wyoming
    How many of those have open carry tied to CC laws? And it is a point of argument to be brought up outside the 10th circuit.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Campaign Veteran gogodawgs's Avatar
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    SCOTUS may rule on CC....

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    Campaign Veteran slapmonkay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WalkingWolf View Post
    If concealed carry is not 2A then the door is open for mandating open carry in all 50 states. Before CC was a 2A option recognized by the courts, it no longer is, they must allow open carry.

    All laws now tying open carry to a privilege cards are NOW unconstitutional. Including our own in NC for restaurant carry. This ruling may be the best thing that could have happened to open carry.
    Agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by gogodawgs View Post
    Lots of eyes will be on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    And let's not forget that one must possess a license issued by the same state a school zone is in in order to legally carry a loaded firearm within 1000' of a school.
    Unless your in MT
    Last edited by slapmonkay; 02-25-2013 at 03:22 PM.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    I believe the SCOTUS will rule in between. That a individual does have a right to bear arms outside the home, but that concealed carry is not what is meant by the second amendment. I believe the right to openly bear arms will be the result, which I must admit will thrill me if this is the outcome. Once this happens the disdain will come off open carry and the push from the NRA, GRNC, and others will have to shift to the right to OC, where it belongs.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
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    Regular Member WalkingWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    And let's not forget that one must possess a license issued by the same state a school zone is in in order to legally carry a loaded firearm within 1000' of a school.
    This does not have to be a license to conceal carry, just a "license to do so", which in NC it is not. Unless the laws have changed since last session the restrictions to OC clearly point to federal restrictions also. Sooner or later this will end up in SCOTUS again, the sooner the better, the law is unconstitutional. And probably why there has not been widespread usage of the law. If the court shifts in the least little bit, the law will be enforced vigorously.
    It is well that war is so terrible otherwise we would grow too fond of it.
    Robert E. Lee
    The patriot volunteer, fighting for country and his rights, makes the most reliable soldier on earth.
    Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson
    What separates the winners from the losers is how a person reacts to each new twist of fate.
    President Donald Trump

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