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Thread: GOP bans guns at Republican State Convention

  1. #1
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    GOP bans guns at Republican State Convention

    The Michigan Republicans party Sgt. at arms has told people who were lawfully openly carrying holstered handguns to leave the party's state convention today or leave their guns in the car.

    In fact, we've learned that they are prohibiting concealed carry at the state convention as well.

    Video of the entire incident:

    http://qik.com/video/57404719

    Here's how it went down: Tony DeMott (The State Coordinator for Michigan Campaign for Liberty) left the convention hall to have a smoke outside. On the way out he ran into a security guard in the main hallway. The security guard told him he would have to disarm to come back in. Tony said, "wait one moment" and called me -- I was still inside.

    I came out to the situation, camera rolling. What happens next is above.


    The State GOP has declared itself a PFZ.
    Last edited by TheQ; 02-23-2013 at 06:03 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  2. #2
    Regular Member Ezerharden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    The Michigan Republicans party Sgt. at arms has told people who were lawfully openly carrying holstered handguns to leave the party's state convention today or leave their guns in the car.

    In fact, we've learned that they are prohibiting concealed carry at the state convention as well.

    The State GOP has declared itself a PFZ.
    I assume this is held on private property. Imagine the "pro gun" GOP with that kind of attitude.
    Want to keep informed of Open Carry events in your area? Go to www.miopencarry.org/update

    I carry a gun because a Police Officer is too heavy.

    For Drama free gun rights discussion, see http://forums.michiganopencarry.org/

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    Campaign Veteran skidmark's Avatar
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    Te Virginia Republican Convention is held in a city-owned venue. The convention center management company tried to throw up a "no guns" rule. State preemption for the win!

    The Virginia Republican Party realized that "no guns" was a major issue with the membership and has never tried to impose a "no guns" rule of their own.

    I understand that Michiganders cannot carry in places with large seating capacity, but are free to take their guns places where only a few people will be killed when those guns go off on a killing spree by themself.

    stay safe.
    "He'll regret it to his dying day....if ever he lives that long."----The Quiet Man

    Because stupidity isn't a race, and everybody can win.

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  4. #4
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    GOP bans guns at Republican State Convention

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezerharden View Post
    I assume this is held on private property. Imagine the "pro gun" GOP with that kind of attitude.
    Lansing Center, owned by LEPFA -- an authority.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  5. #5
    Regular Member Raggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Lansing Center, owned by LEPFA -- an authority.
    But rented by th GOP?
    My reasons to OC
    1. to raise awareness of the legality of open carry in Michigan
    2. To raise awareness that good people carry guns
    3. A deterrent to people so that I won't be targeted
    4. Because it's more comfortable than CC in most situations
    5. Because I can and want to
    6. Because it's perfectly legal
    7. Self defense

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raggs View Post
    But rented by th GOP?
    Yup. Which means it was the GOP's choice to not allow guns, since we know Authorities can not ban them. If the convention was held on private property, perhaps the building owners could have banned guns and the GOP would have zero say on the issue. None the less, that was not the case here. The GOP chose to ban firearms carry, no one else.

    I'm embarrassed for the party I most align myself with.

  7. #7
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Ok... off the top of my head (and please do feel free to correct me) according to my understanding...

    Until the Michigan Supreme Court renders a ruling the Appeals Court decision rendered in the CADL vs MOC case that the Michigan legislature occupies the entire field of firearms regulation and that an "authority" created by units of State government cannot have any rules/policies in violation of State law....

    And that the MOC vs Ferndale case showed that a renter of a property owned by a unit of government also cannot have any rules/policies in violation of State law....

    Exactly what legal standing does the GOP have for banning guns on property... owned by an "authority" that is subject to State law?

    Ok..... that is the legal part of it... and now...

    Here is the important part of it...

    Does anyone still have any doubt that the Republican party is nothing more than a reflection of the Democrat party... and that the Democrat party is nothing more than a reflection of the Republican party... and that both are nothing more than a subsection of the Progressive Socialist party?
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

  8. #8
    Campaign Veteran smellslikemichigan's Avatar
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    2 sides of the same coin
    "If it ain't loaded and cocked it don't shoot." - Rooster Cogburn
    http://www.graystatemovie.com/

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    Regular Member Michigander's Avatar
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    Yep, both the same garbage masquerading as leaders attempting to bring about change.

    But my thing is that I feel like the gun issue is the thing I can have influence in, since that is my specialty. And it is in that sense that for issues like this I'd make my primary goal be to give them a really hard time about their illegal no guns rule.

  10. #10
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    with "friends" like these, who needs enemies?
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  11. #11
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    GOP bans guns at Republican State Convention

    Quote Originally Posted by DetroitBiker View Post
    How many people were openly carrying?
    and were there metal detectors at the entrance? , if not how would they know if people were carrying concealed
    About a half dozen I know of. Only two of us were "caught" and booted.

    No metal detectors, but they told me CC was banned too.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  12. #12
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Ok... off the top of my head (and please do feel free to correct me) according to my understanding...

    Until the Michigan Supreme Court renders a ruling the Appeals Court decision rendered in the CADL vs MOC case that the Michigan legislature occupies the entire field of firearms regulation and that an "authority" created by units of State government cannot have any rules/policies in violation of State law....
    Correct. Unless SCoM overturns it, authorities can't ban guns.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    And that the MOC vs Ferndale case showed that a renter of a property owned by a unit of government also cannot have any rules/policies in violation of State law....
    There was no "MOC v Ferndale" case. I think you may be getting MCRGO v Ferndale (Michigan CoA, 2002) confused with the Royal Oaks Art's Beats and Eats affair. The ABE situation was resolved with greassroots and media pressure, with no court case involvement. There is zero legal president on the question of whether a Local Unit of Government can lease up property to people who can ban guns. I've spoken to two reputable 2A laws in Michigan who say the Private organization renting public space probably could ban guns. They both agreed it would make an interesting case and there is no case law (binding or otherwise) on the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Exactly what legal standing does the GOP have for banning guns on property... owned by an "authority" that is subject to State law?

    Ok..... that is the legal part of it... and now...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bikenut View Post
    Here is the important part of it...

    Does anyone still have any doubt that the Republican party is nothing more than a reflection of the Democrat party... and that the Democrat party is nothing more than a reflection of the Republican party... and that both are nothing more than a subsection of the Progressive Socialist party?
    No doubt at all. Speaking of the Democrats, Pat Dunbar tells me his son openly carried today at the Democratic state convention and not a word was said to him -- interesting.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  13. #13
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    Video of the entire incident:

    http://qik.com/video/57404719

    Here's how it went down: Tony DeMott (The State Coordinator for Michigan Campaign for Liberty) left the convention hall to have a smoke outside. On the way out he ran into a security guard in the main hallway. The security guard told him he would have to disarm to come back in. Tony said, "wait one moment" and called me -- I was still inside.

    I came out to the situation, camera rolling. What happens next is above.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Bikenut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    Correct. Unless SCoM overturns it, authorities can't ban guns.



    There was no "MOC v Ferndale" case. I think you may be getting MCRGO v Ferndale (Michigan CoA, 2002) confused with the Royal Oaks Art's Beats and Eats affair. The ABE situation was resolved with greassroots and media pressure, with no court case involvement. There is zero legal president on the question of whether a Local Unit of Government can lease up property to people who can ban guns. I've spoken to two reputable 2A laws in Michigan who say the Private organization renting public space probably could ban guns. They both agreed it would make an interesting case and there is no case law (binding or otherwise) on the question.




    No doubt at all. Speaking of the Democrats, Pat Dunbar tells me his son openly carried today at the Democratic state convention and not a word was said to him -- interesting.
    Thank you for the clarification concerning my mixing up MOC with MCRGO in the Ferdale case. My mistake.
    Gun control isn't about the gun at all.... for those who want gun control it is all about their own fragile egos, their own lack of self esteem, their own inner fears, and most importantly... their own desire to dominate others. And an openly carried gun is a slap in the face to all of those things.

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    I'm not real surprised by his response. I can tell you this, when I was actively supporting Mike Cox for governor I went to every GOP event open carrying without issue, including the convention, and an event at Lawrence Tech University. My comment to them would be if you're trying to represent the GOP party as pro-gun party how can you host an event in a place where their policy is to ban firearms. It's one of the many contradictions I've seen.

    Considering the times we're in where members of the parties are looking to draw up an anti-gun compromise bill. I'd like to see how pro-gun the party really is. Someone should confront these people (GOP leadership in Michigan) on their stances as a pro-gun party and are they willing to address the issue at hand. The answers would be interesting.
    Last edited by mikestilly; 02-24-2013 at 01:13 PM.

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    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Re: GOP bans guns at Republican State Convention

    Quote Originally Posted by skidmark View Post
    Te Virginia Republican Convention is held in a city-owned venue. The convention center management company tried to throw up a "no guns" rule. State preemption for the win!

    The Virginia Republican Party realized that "no guns" was a major issue with the membership and has never tried to impose a "no guns" rule of their own.

    I understand that Michiganders cannot carry in places with large seating capacity, but are free to take their guns places where only a few people will be killed when those guns go off on a killing spree by themself.

    stay safe.
    Although CC MAY be prohibited under Michigan law, OC by a person with a CPL in that venue is not. Furthermore, a recent Michigan Appeals Court decision held that an "authority" is preempted from enacting and or enforcing any firearms policy contrary to state law; the Legislature of the State of Michigan has fully occupied the field of regulation. Currently, the aforementioned case is being appealed to the Michigan Supreme Court and we should know soon whether the Supreme Court will hear the case or let it stand.
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  17. #17
    Regular Member detroit_fan's Avatar
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    Open carry advocate claims Michigan Republican Party kept his gun out of state conven

    An open-carry advocate who has spoken about gun rights at some recent Grand Rapids City Commission meetings apparently was forced to empty his holster at last weekend’s Michigan Republican Party convention.

    http://www.mlive.com/politics/index....laims_mic.html
    If guns cause crime, all mine are defective- Ted Nugent

  18. #18
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    There has been dialog, both publicly and privately on the matter.

    Bobby Schostak has issued this public statement:

    Sorry I haven’t had a chance to reply sooner. Already busy at work preparing for 2014! I won’t go into motives, I think they’re pretty evident but here are the facts regarding the recent dispute about the open-carry issue at the Michigan Republican Party Convention on Saturday. The Lansing Center has a policy that does not allow open carry or CCW on their premises. We entered into a contract with the Lansing Center. On Saturday, when it was brought to our attention, we disagreed with the policy, but our contract requires we adhere to their policies. Cheap political attacks on Carl Berry are ridiculous, he’s a long time Republican, grassroots activists, and he volunteered to serve as Sergeant-at-Arms. The security guard in the video was wrong, it was not our policy. I look forward to continuing to build and strengthen our party, and that requires us to positively engage with one another, but I will not tolerate unnecessary and untruthful political attacks whether they come from the Democratic Party or a member of our party. There’s too much at stake in 2014, let’s stay focused and work together. Thanks for all the support and positive feedback!
    I have issued this statement in response:
    Mr. Schostak. I thank you for addressing this issue that is very important to our party, our base, and our grassroots -- the right to Keep and Bear Arms!!

    CADL v. Michigan Open Carry, Inc. (MI Court of Appeals, 2012) (I am the president of MOC) found that the State Legislature intended to occupy the field to the exclusion of all other local government regulation -- including regulation of "Authorities" such as LEPFA (the owner of the Lansing Center).

    Given this, the Lansing Center's policy is preempted and unlawful. When we asked Mr. Berry if we had to put our guns in the car, he said yes (clearly seen on the video). Given that the Lansing Center's security guard had told us his request that we put our guns in the car came from the GOP Sgt. At Arms, you can understand why we were a bit concerned and wanted confirmation on this point.

    Today I had the pleasure to speak to Mr. Matt Frendewey about this matter. He and I came to the agreement that going forward MOC will work with MiGOP as you select your convention locations. If the location is an "authority" or other local government, we will be happy to work with you to get that venue to see the error in the way of their policy so we can handle these issues preemptively rather than reactively and in a way that creates confusion and division.

    I hope Mr. Frendewey was correct and sincere in stating your leadership team would like to work together to prevent these problems in the future. If you are sincerely interested in preventing this unfortunate confusion in the future, I hope you will reach out to me -- PHofmeister@miopencarry.org.

    Kind Regards,

    Phillip Hofmeister
    President
    Michigan Open Carry, Inc

    PS, you may be able to do a lot to show gun owners in Michigan that you and MiGOP support the right to keep and bear by writing a letter of support regarding SB 213. I'm sure Sen. Mike Green's office would love to work with you on that letter.

    PSS. I am/was a Todd Courser backer, but let's not allow that to cloud the issue. If you tell me you're open to working on this matter, I will believe that until you show me otherwise.
    Last edited by TheQ; 02-25-2013 at 07:40 PM.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    There has been dialog, both publicly and privately on the matter.

    Bobby Schostak has issued this public statement:



    I have issued this statement in response:
    Shouldn't the word be that instead of hat before venue
    Last edited by bossbart; 02-25-2013 at 07:20 PM.

  20. #20
    Michigan Moderator Shadow Bear's Avatar
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    My crops aren't growing as well as they should. I think Horshack's memo would be ever so much more effective on my fields than the usual fertilizer.

    Just remember; if it smells like strong manure, there's a professional politician nearby.....
    'If the people are not ready for the exercise of the non-violence of the brave, they must be ready for the use of force in self defense. There should be no camouflage.....it must never be secret.' MK Gandhi II-146 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)-- Gandhi supports open carry!

    'There is nothing more demoralizing than the fake non-violence of the weak and impotent.' MK Gandhi II-153 (Gandhi on Non-Violence)

  21. #21
    Michigan Moderator DrTodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow Bear View Post
    My crops aren't growing as well as they should. I think Horshack's memo would be ever so much more effective on my fields than the usual fertilizer.

    Just remember; if it smells like strong manure, there's a professional politician nearby.....
    Which reminds me, I hope he pursues this. (jk with the "he")
    Giving up our liberties for safety is the one sure way to let the violent among us win.

    "Though defensive violence will always be a 'sad necessity' in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrongdoers should dominate just men." -Saint Augustine

    Disclaimer – I am not a lawyer! Please do not consider anything you read from me to be legal advice.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheQ View Post
    There has been dialog, both publicly and privately on the matter.

    Bobby Schostak has issued this public statement:



    I have issued this statement in response:
    Phil, Thanks for taking this on. Sorry I missed you Saturday. I, being new to the delegate business, was sticking close to the 1st Dist designated area.
    PS we are still planning for a presentation in Oscoda Co for April. Hope you can help us.springerdave.

    edit to add opinion: The MiGOP Chair MUST keep in mind that he is only the Chair for the lack of 40 or so votes for his opponent. Nearly one half of the "R"'s there are true firearms supporters.
    Last edited by springerdave; 02-28-2013 at 01:25 PM.

  23. #23
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    GOP bans guns at Republican State Convention

    Quote Originally Posted by springerdave View Post
    Phil,
    PS we are still planning for a presentation in Oscoda Co for April. Hope you can help us.springerdave.

    .
    I don't have this on my calendar. You should write me at PHofmeister@miopencarry.org and confirm the details!

    If it's not on my calendar, you cannot count on my participation!
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

  24. #24
    Regular Member TheQ's Avatar
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    UPDATE:

    Brian Jeffs and I reviewed the contract at LEPFA HQ. The contract proper had no mention of guns. We reviewed various addendum to the contract that mentioned security, additional security (none of those clauses mentioned guns), and sticking adhesives to the walls -- but nothing about guns.

    When we asked for a written copy of the gun policy, we got dumb looks. The LEPFA staffer said there is one (a policy) but didn't know where it was written down.

    Brian has FOIA'd for a copy of the policy that was in writing at the time of the incident. More to come on that.


    LEPFA's lawyer, Eric Doster, is also the MI GOP's "General Council" (that is, their lawyer). Eric Doster (who I talked to at the time under the understanding he was LEPFA's lawyer alone -- didn't know he was the GOP's lawyer until later in the week) is the first person from LEPFA to confirm there was a policy.
    Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first.

    I am not a lawyer (merely an omnipotent member of a continuum). The contents of this post are not a substitute for sound legal advice from a licensed attorney in your jurisdiction.

    Comments and views stated in my post are my own and do not necessarily represent the views of Michigan Open Carry, Inc. unless stated otherwise in the post.

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